Can it be too sporty?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

It's called a resistor..... Try looking up what a resistor does to a capacitor, and you just might get an understanding on how it works.

Less trolling, more listening.

jeeze don't have to get mean about it,

and I think ToyotaObsession's question is a little more complex, than a simple resistor in line can answer.

Correct me if im wrong, we are are talking about large quantities of energy being stored in a single point temporary for use, and all that energy must move seemlessly for the driver. And the concern is using the switching system via ECU, and the complication from using multiple power sources that are not tied together. EG Once the Capacitor switch is pulled, it should disconnect the source from the battery from the circuit, in fear of energy being backfed?

Also the saftey of this system, while batteries hold lots of electricity, it seems like capacitors stores lots of unstable energy. During a colision or a sudden malfunction holding a full charge in the capacitor sounds scary and complicated to control.

I use 2 batteries in my rx7, one powers the fuel pump and other electronics. The other powers the ECU, and both are tied to a circuit breaker box i built behind the passenger seat. Id think with a proper ECU regulating something like a digital circuit breaker, all those question and fears could be put to rest.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

charge decay is dependent on the dielectric losses. This is where graphene comes in.

Regardless, ultra capacitors take about a month to degrade about 1/2 their energy. Not a big concern at all. We use them in power generation to improve the power factor when we have high inductive power loads.

are those ultra capacitors used in city power application? In an article a few years back i heard that Mclarean was testing a capacitor run on a KERS system to use when F1 approved of the use of it. And had a 15 min window to use the charge or it will be lost.

I think thats a bit different from charge decay, it almost seems like the purposely built the capacitor to discharge or loose energy from the capacitor after a short amount of time.

[Type[R]+]

You could integrate ultracaps into the battery system using a buck boost convertor?
Run on bats normally, acceleration would see voltage drop, kick in caps. Opposite would charge caps.

Not sure what you mean by unstable energy? Just think of cap = battery.

How have you hooked up your dual battery system?

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

are those ultra capacitors used in city power application? In an article a few years back i heard that Mclarean was testing a capacitor run on a KERS system to use when F1 approved of the use of it. And had a 15 min window to use the charge or it will be lost.

I think thats a bit different from charge decay, it almost seems like the purposely built the capacitor to discharge or loose energy from the capacitor after a short amount of time.

I'll have to read up on it or ask a few engineers at work, but I can't see you getting any charge with that kind of degradation. Kind of goes hand in hand.

[serialk11r]

So I think power regulation ultimately isn't that hard to do, but ToyotaObsession brings up a good point: If we are to release all this energy in a short period of time, how should it be done in the best way (to improve performance, driving experience, efficiency, etc.)? With just a fat battery pack we don't run into this issue since the battery has enough energy to last more than a run to the top speed of the vehicle, or something like that. If we are to attempt to use the high peak power of an ultracapacitor, how quickly we use that energy, how much do we use in proportion to the main engine under partial power circumstances, how do we make it predictable and controllable for the driver, are all things that need to be done.

I don't think safety is that big of an issue in particular, it's no different from the risk of a lithium ion battery exploding or shorting or something.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

are those ultra capacitors used in city power application? In an article a few years back i heard that Mclarean was testing a capacitor run on a KERS system to use when F1 approved of the use of it. And had a 15 min window to use the charge or it will be lost.

I think thats a bit different from charge decay, it almost seems like the purposely built the capacitor to discharge or loose energy from the capacitor after a short amount of time.

Sorry, I told porkies....

Yeah, your right, my boss said they get huge charge very quickly by having extremely thin dielectric (insulation between the carbon plates). It would dissipate rather quick too.

So yeah, it's to store as much energy as possible in the quickest amount of time.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

You could integrate ultracaps into the battery system using a buck boost convertor?
Run on bats normally, acceleration would see voltage drop, kick in caps. Opposite would charge caps.

Not sure what you mean by unstable energy? Just think of cap = battery.

How have you hooked up your dual battery system?

oh, i think toyotaobsession was worried about that voltage drop once you switch on that capacitor. The transition of the power should be seamless to the driver.

I have my batteries run on an isolator thats connected to a circuit breaker, w/ a rear quick disconnect. Originally i was required to have a battery disconnect switch and fuel pump switch at this racing sanction i was trying to join. So I ended up wanting to use a separate power system for my fuel pump and starter. It got complicated and i eventually didn't make the race. But it turned out great, because I didn't have to worry about electrical load when I switched to a 2 pump parallel fuel system, and a HKS TwinFire CDI ignition and MSD coils, which was really demanding when i was at 7000-8000rpms.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

oh, i think toyotaobsession was worried about that voltage drop once you switch on that capacitor. The transition of the power should be seamless to the driver.

I have my batteries run on an isolator thats connected to a circuit breaker, w/ a rear quick disconnect. Originally i was required to have a battery disconnect switch and fuel pump switch at this racing sanction i was trying to join. So I ended up wanting to use a separate power system for my fuel pump and starter. It got complicated and i eventually didn't make the race. But it turned out great, because I didn't have to worry about electrical load when I switched to a 2 pump parallel fuel system, and a HKS TwinFire CDI ignition and MSD coils, which was really demanding when i was at 7000-8000rpms.

Why don't you just buy a 4x4 dual battery system? Very cheap and straight off the shelf.

As for seamlessness of capacitor discharge, you could easily set it up with a variable resistor to control a variable rate of discharge. Wouldn't seem hard to tie in with motor load or throttle position or both?

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Why don't you just buy a 4x4 dual battery system? Very cheap and straight off the shelf.

oOOo i did a search..4x4 dual battery systems look reallly nice with that automated charge regulation by switching to parallel and isolation. Sounds like its a system thats a bit more efficient than mine.

My batteries are always around 75%-90% with the way its set up. I had to get a 180amp alternator to run a good charge without overworking. I am always worried that i might overcharge a battery. But i have the breaker set up so that both batteries are being drained at the same time which is pretty bad for the alternator. But fantastic great for the distribution of energy on my rx7.

[serialk11r]

Variable resistor D: I hope you don't mean using that to directly control discharge.
But a converter that puts out constant voltage with variable input is not hard to do, neither is it hard to change that voltage. Of course we're not just going to switch on the capacitor with the motors and let it rip the tires loose, but there needs to be refinement in power delivery that people expect.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Variable resistor D: I hope you don't mean using that to directly control discharge.
But a converter that puts out constant voltage with variable input is not hard to do, neither is it hard to change that voltage. Of course we're not just going to switch on the capacitor with the motors and let it rip the tires loose, but there needs to be refinement in power delivery that people expect.

Got to try and put it in 'normal' people's terms. We use a lot of slang here in the power industry. There's a few ways to do it, we use 'AVRs' to control our generator output off DC supply, it's very common.

[[es vi: eks]]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Interestingly, ultra capacitors use crappy carbon as insulator, but check out graphene, which is what they developing at the moment. This is the shit! You can even forget all about silicone computing chips ect, this is the future! :happy0180:

I thought the use of Man made Dimonds were the next big thing to replace silicone?
I Read a very interesting artical on it.
They are getting cheapper to manifacture all the time.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

oOOo i did a search..4x4 dual battery systems look reallly nice with that automated charge regulation by switching to parallel and isolation. Sounds like its a system thats a bit more efficient than mine.

My batteries are always around 75%-90% with the way its set up. I had to get a 180amp alternator to run a good charge without overworking. I am always worried that i might overcharge a battery. But i have the breaker set up so that both batteries are being drained at the same time which is pretty bad for the alternator. But fantastic great for the distribution of energy on my rx7.

Sounds good. as long as you don't go below 50%, your batteries should last quite a while. Depending on how the isolator is set up (manual? charge one then the other?) it won't be over worked, I hear some solenoid isolators (charge both same time) can give the system a bit of a work out, but I think its more people talking then actually seeing it happening. The smart solenoids just switch from one (starter bat) to both for charging.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Sounds good. as long as you don't go below 50%, your batteries should last quite a while. Depending on how the isolator is set up (manual? charge one then the other?) it won't be over worked, I hear some solenoid isolators (charge both same time) can give the system a bit of a work out, but I think its more people talking then actually seeing it happening. The smart solenoids just switch from one (starter bat) to both for charging.

the isolator i bought has a built in relay or solenoid of some sort, so it charges both batteries at the same time. Like I said the alternator is a champ right now, but it is working really hard keeping charge to both batteries, but at 180amp its not as bad.