Can it be too sporty?

[serialk11r]

Well you could argue that it does have minimal weight, for its massive 5.6L supercharged engine...all depends on what you're comparing with.

[82mm 4g63]

We all have our own definitions, but I mean sports car is a pretty general classification. Technically the SLR is a GT and technically the Miata is a Roadster, both fall under the "sports car" umbrella. But whatever, lol. Who really cares what a car is classified as?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

We all have our own definitions, but I mean sports car is a pretty general classification. Technically the SLR is a GT and technically the Miata is a Roadster, both fall under the "sports car" umbrella. But whatever, lol. Who really cares what a car is classified as?

kinda valid points and im not going to argue that but this is the internet so we are supposed to act immature and argue. i have a right to say "but he started it"

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by fatoni

kinda valid points and im not going to argue that but this is the internet so we are supposed to act immature and argue. i have a right to say "but he started it"

I know you are, but what am I? :happy0180:

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by fatoni

kinda valid points and im not going to argue that but this is the internet so we are supposed to act immature and argue. i have a right to say "but he started it"

It makes for interesting reading though!

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Yea I know ultracapacitors, didn't want to type the ultra. Ultracapacitors still have much lower energy density than batteries though.

Yea I guess it's hard to say, since if they use batteries along with it stuff changes a bit. So actually, what were we all arguing about in the first place? I can't remember...

Anyways.

Toyotaobsession being a huge troll.....

Now for civilized discussion - Yes, (ultra) capacitors are energy density low, but they are extremely power density high. They have got them to about the same as a lead acid battery in terms of energy density, even up to about 4x now? They are very quick and simple to charge, you can't over charge them, and are very stable across temperatures. These will indeed replace batteries (yes, even NiMH!) in the future, no doubt about that (IMO).

Interestingly, ultra capacitors use crappy carbon as insulator, but check out graphene, which is what they developing at the moment. This is the shit! You can even forget all about silicone computing chips ect, this is the future! :happy0180:

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

what's so funny?

Who said FT-86 was a hybrid?

Are you saying a concept car can't be a precursor to something else?

So why is everyone calling it the Lexus version of the FT86?

I'll forget all of my qualifications, training, and job in the power industry running all of these things for a minute, and let you explain to everyone about capacitors and what you think is so hard....

FT-HS

And what was the precursor to the FT-HS?

The FT-86 isn't a Hybrid.

Who's calling it that? Nothing I've read is calling it the Lexus FT-86. Some people have tried to tie to the Supra name simply because it's a high price/high horsepower Car. The whole point of the FT-86 is little Technology and cheap price. The FT-HS is full of cutting edge Technology and is expensive. So again, provide some links to these so called people.

If you think the FT-HS is a precursor to the FT-86, the FT-86 would have to be a Hybrid.

I am, unless it's the precursor to the Car itself. A concept is more often that not, just that. Proof of Concept. A "Hey look what we can make!". Oftentimes they can be the inspiration for other Production cars. They might take bits and pieces off it, or like the way something looks and use it. But that doesn't make it a precursor if they literally have nothing else in common. There needs to a certain progression in order to call it a precursor.

I don't care what qualifications you have honestly. If you can't put words on the screen to explain it, then it doesn't matter if you're Tomas Edison. I have explained why it's harder than just adding a Capacitor to the Electrical Circuit. It's like some kid saying he's going to shoehorn a Viper V-10 into his Prius to give it more power. It's real easy to talk, anyone can say they are going to do something or someone else is going to do something. It's much harder to actually do it.

The FT-HS has no precursor. The looked at their Hybrid system and said we want to make this into a Sports Car.

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Toyotaobsession being a huge troll.....

Now for civilized discussion - Yes, (ultra) capacitors are energy density low, but they are extremely power density high. They have got them to about the same as a lead acid battery in terms of energy density, even up to about 4x now? They are very quick and simple to charge, you can't over charge them, and are very stable across temperatures. These will indeed replace batteries (yes, even NiMH!) in the future, no doubt about that (IMO).

Interestingly, ultra capacitors use crappy carbon as insulator, but check out graphene, which is what they developing at the moment. This is the shit! You can even forget all about silicone computing chips ect, this is the future! :happy0180:

From the media you worship so much.

"The next-gen hybrid system is the key: In this system, braking energy is stored and can be released as what Tamura-san calls "explosive power" out of turns. He won't go into detail, but it's likely the system uses a combination of a lightweight lithium battery pack and capacitors. The battery pack provides the longer-term energy storage as used in Toyota's current Hybrid Synergy Drive vehicles, while the capacitors allow split-second discharge of large amounts of energy, perfect for delivering "explosive power." The trick is managing and integrating the various power flows-engine, battery, capacitors-so it feels seamless to the driver."

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/future/con...#ixzz1X289dh5l

Again, not an easy thing to do. So with all your qualifications please explain how Toyota is going to sync all these systems up and make it so they are actually usable. Doesn't do much good if the Capacitor simply unloads it's entire load to the wheels overpowering them out of every corner.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

We all have our own definitions, but I mean sports car is a pretty general classification. Technically the SLR is a GT and technically the Miata is a Roadster, both fall under the "sports car" umbrella. But whatever, lol. Who really cares what a car is classified as?

I agree with this soo much...so many forums are riddled with..."THIS IS A SPORTS CAR THATS IS NOT A SPORTS CAR" blah blah blah

Honestly the only opinion that matters wither a car is classified a sports vehicle is the insurance companies that place them into brackets. AKA any vehicle classified sporty will yield a higher premium. And we cant argue with that.

In the eyes of the insurance god, just because you have back seats, 4 doors, and weigh 4000lbs, and has a top speed of 100mph..if the insurance god say its a sports car...we musy obey and pay that higher premium for my sport car. Regardless of how shitty of a sports car it is.

[WingsofWar]

From what i gathered, i always thought that the regulation and management of power on a hybrid vehicle is easy, even among the DYI electric car racers, they don't have a problem with the right AMP and CPU configuration running the appropriate EVmotor.

And from the EV guys, and that recent episode of Top Gear, they both agreed that the problem is storage of power. Batteries can become more efficient in storage, but end up useless if they stay the same weight or get heavier due to complexity.

Things like KERS solves a few problems but then adds problems too. But on theory, if we get rid of SOME battery weight and use high capacity capacitors on a reserve, it would temporarly solve some questions about availability of power.

[Type[R]+]

Yeah, it seems to be that cost and reliability is the problem at the moment.
Power regulation is is easy. I can't wait until this is mainstream!

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

From what i gathered, i always thought that the regulation and management of power on a hybrid vehicle is easy, even among the DYI electric car racers, they don't have a problem with the right AMP and CPU configuration running the appropriate EVmotor.

And from the EV guys, and that recent episode of Top Gear, they both agreed that the problem is storage of power. Batteries can become more efficient in storage, but end up useless if they stay the same weight or get heavier due to complexity.

Things like KERS solves a few problems but then adds problems too. But on theory, if we get rid of SOME battery weight and use high capacity capacitors on a reserve, it would temporarly solve some questions about availability of power.

Agreed, but how to distribute that power?

Now instead of having just one source that can be easily controlled you have 2 power sources one of which wants to rapidly discharge itself.

How do you bleed off the battery introduce the power from the Capacitor and switch back to full battery in such a way that you don't overpower the motors and make it as seamless as possible? Not to mention driver input and how much power they are going to want?

What to do in switchbacks where they are going from braking to power to braking quickly? Will the components heat up drastically switching back and forth? Can the Capacitor handle not being fully discharged before being charged again?

People aren't going to be happy if there's a momentary drop in power that's noticeable while the systems switches power sources.

If they could find a way to harness enough power in a Capacitor and hold it for several minutes, they could use that on the Prius to use the power from coming to a stop to get you going again until the batteries take over.

The FT-HS is probably an experiment in doing that. Start out with something that will use that power quickly. I'm also curious how they might discharge that extra power when it's not needed? Flying around the Track unless they had a wire poking out to ground the Car I don't think it would handle having all that electricity grounded into the the frame. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Adding high powered Capacitors to the system is much different than adding more batteries because if that Capacitor goes off, it'll be more than enough voltage to kill someone.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Agreed, but how to distribute that power?

Now instead of having just one source that can be easily controlled you have 2 power sources one of which wants to rapidly discharge itself.

How do you bleed off the battery introduce the power from the Capacitor and switch back to full battery in such a way that you don't overpower the motors and make it as seamless as possible? Not to mention driver input and how much power they are going to want?

What to do in switchbacks where they are going from braking to power to braking quickly? Will the components heat up drastically switching back and forth? Can the Capacitor handle not being fully discharged before being charged again?

People aren't going to be happy if there's a momentary drop in power that's noticeable while the systems switches power sources.

If they could find a way to harness enough power in a Capacitor and hold it for several minutes, they could use that on the Prius to use the power from coming to a stop to get you going again until the batteries take over.

The FT-HS is probably an experiment in doing that. Start out with something that will use that power quickly. I'm also curious how they might discharge that extra power when it's not needed? Flying around the Track unless they had a wire poking out to ground the Car I don't think it would handle having all that electricity grounded into the the frame. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Adding high powered Capacitors to the system is much different than adding more batteries because if that Capacitor goes off, it'll be more than enough voltage to kill someone.

Your right, those questions need to get answered. I couldn't or even try to give a hypothesis on how it could work, im not an engineer. I am just a industrial designer with a psychology degree.

I had heard that Toyota, Honda and Porsche were working on similar systems. And I heard that Porsche in recent test successfully pumped out +200hp of energy on the fly from a similar KERS system. How they did it, i dunno..sounds dangerous. But Toyota's Supra HV-R during a test run and a 24hour endurance race, used KERS and use a series of supercapacitors to store power and save weight.

I think the answers really rely on the CPU, or multiple CPUs that run tandem. and the design of the capacitor and storage unit itself.

Right now i think the current high power capacitors in test cars now can only store a certain amount of energy at a time, because they are designed to temporary store energy and bleed/dischage power. The old "if you don't use it you loose it mentality".

The idea that we wanted to use capacitors for long term storage, I get kinda scared. But excited at the same time.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Again, not an easy thing to do. So with all your qualifications please explain how Toyota is going to sync all these systems up and make it so they are actually usable. Doesn't do much good if the Capacitor simply unloads it's entire load to the wheels overpowering them out of every corner.

It's called a resistor..... Try looking up what a resistor does to a capacitor, and you just might get an understanding on how it works.

Less trolling, more listening.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

Right now i think the current high power capacitors in test cars now can only store a certain amount of energy at a time, because they are designed to temporary store energy and bleed/dischage power. The old "if you don't use it you loose it mentality".

charge decay is dependent on the dielectric losses. This is where graphene comes in.

Regardless, ultra capacitors take about a month to degrade about 1/2 their energy. Not a big concern at all. We use them in power generation to improve the power factor when we have high inductive power loads.