So my FR-S is officially a lemon...

[Gixxersixxerman]

Originally Posted by Razz

This just shows how bad the quality control is at Toyota.

Remember the sticking gas pedal? They refuse to acknowledge that it was a design flaw and blamed it on a mechanical part from the supplier.

Good thing Subaru manufactures this car...

Also as stated above... Take your car to a DIFFERENT dealership.. Explain the problem and have them install it properly.. Explain to them that you know about the TSB to install them and that they need to have their Master tech do the install because of the problem you are having... You would be surprised what you can get done if you sit down and talk with service managers..

As long as its not at D!ck poes in El Paso

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by frsinpa

Yep, a lot of folks who clicked this thread aren't understanding the problem.

...the same problem keeps occuring.. OVER and OVER again.

...I challenge you to understand that the root problem is the body itself, not the tail lights.

...It's extremely frustrating to buy a brand new car only to have a constant nagging issue with no end in sight, which is why I'm exploring the lemon laws.

Your earlier point about the risk that someone might not clearly see your taillights and it result in a crash -- fully understood. The concern about the liability resulting from such a scenario -- fully understood. By us at least.

One thing: You said "the root problem is the body itself." That doesn't sound like what others have described. I thought this issue was a gasket not seating properly, or being damaged during installation, resulting in moisture entering the enclosure?

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

It has nothing to do with the body of the car. If your car has gone through multiple taillight replacements, it's not because there is a defect in the body of the car.

I am not saying it is a defect with the body of the car but it is possible that it could be a defect with the body of the car. It could be an issue with body flex in the area of the rear lights which could cause pressure from the trunk or bumper to crack the tail lights. Obviously, something is causing a problem on this guys car and Toyota/Subaru does not seem to know how to fix it. Also, everyone knows that this is not an isolated case. Others have had tail lights replaced multiple times.

And if you think that this body does not flex (a lot) there is a video on here somewhere that I watched of a guy running the car through pylons or on a track. The Go-Pro was mounted right behind the drivers door and you could watch the seam around the door get bigger and smaller as the car changed directions. Watching that led to the moment when I said "Aha!" and understood why TRD made the door brace add ons. It is not too big of a stretch to think that similar forces may be damaging the tail light housings. Just sayin.

[Gixxersixxerman]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I am not saying it is a defect with the body of the car but it is possible that it could be a defect with the body of the car. It could be an issue with body flex in the area of the rear lights which could cause pressure from the trunk or bumper to crack the tail lights. Obviously, something is causing a problem on this guys car and Toyota/Subaru does not seem to know how to fix it. Also, everyone knows that this is not an isolated case. Others have had tail lights replaced multiple times.

And if you think that this body does not flex (a lot) there is a video on here somewhere that I watched of a guy running the car through pylons or on a track. The Go-Pro was mounted right behind the drivers door and you could watch the seam around the door get bigger and smaller as the car changed directions. That was the moment when I understood why TRD made the door braces. It is not too big of a stretch to think that similar forces may be damaging the tail light housings. Just sayin.

Not to be a ass or anything.. But did you read the posts... Toyota/Subaru know what the problem is.. The lights being over torqued when being installed.. The dealership techs are just not following the torque specs.. There is a specific TSB just for this problem.. I can bet the tech takes out the light.. Installs the new one and just tighten the nuts down untill it's tight

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Gixxersixxerman

Not to be a ass or anything.. But did you read the posts... Toyota/Subaru know what the problem is.. The lights being over torqued when being installed.. The dealership techs are just not following the torque specs.. There is a specific TSB just for this problem.. I can bet the tech takes out the light.. Installs the new one and just tighten the nuts down untill it's tight

If that were truly the only cause of the problem then you would think that Toyota and Subaru would have taken extraordianry steps to educate their "trained monkeys" (as someone on here calls them) to install the assemblies correctly. Either their communication and training sucks or there is something more to this.

And yes, I have read this and several other threads concerning this problem. And no, I do not think you are an ass.

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by fistpoint

Did everyone skip my post? I'm pretty sure the TSB mentions that the installation procedure and/or over tightening is what is cracking the seal. It's not the light itself, it's the uneducated monkey installing them.

I sure hope you're talking about the techs @ the dealer. Let me assure you there are many college graduates working on assembly lines for Subaru.

[FirestormFRS]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Actually, they were using two different suppliers for the gas pedal assemblies. One supplier was discovered to have been the source of ALL Toyota's problems and the other supplier had zero issues. FWIW, Toyota does not manufacture their own accelerator pedals....they are supplied as a complete unit and installed at the factory. So even if you blame it on a design flaw, it wasn't Toyota's design flaw.

Not quite. The manufacturer provides the supplier with a technical drawing from which the supplier develops the part. The design is the fully manufacturers not suppliers.

[Gixxersixxerman]

Originally Posted by Rampage

If that were truly the only cause of the problem then you would think that Toyota and Subaru would have taken extraordianry steps to educate their "trained monkeys" (as someone on here calls them) to install the assemblies correctly. Either their communication and training sucks or there is something more to this.

And yes, I have read this and several other threads concerning this problem. And no, I do not think you are an ass.

I've worked for two big dealerships.. One a ford dealer.. The other Honda... The rest of my work was private shops.. Anyways.. While Honda did a better job informing us about tsb's... Ford .. At least that dealership, did nothing to inform us about TSB and other issues.. I can see a car coming in and a tech just swapping lights.. It comes in again and another tech swap them out.. And if its the same tech him just thinking it was a defunct part... Good techs go out of their way to educate themselves.. I did.. Just as now I know a lot of TSB that have nothing to do with this car.. I had to explain the TSB with the DRL's to get them turned off because the service writer had no idea.. These are not camry's and stuff.. There are not 20 sitting in the "pin" waiting for service and stuff.. It's a niche car and untill dealerships start working on them on a regular basis, I don't expect them to have all the techs working at dealerships to be familiar with the FRS..

[White64Goat]

Go to this thread: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21868 read the TSB for the tail light condensation and you will see what is causing the problem. Not the seal. Factory installing the light too tight and then the service people doing the same thing. Doubt they will 'Lemon-aide' your car.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

Not quite. The manufacturer provides the supplier with a technical drawing from which the supplier develops the part. The design is the fully manufacturers not suppliers.

Actually, that's incorrect. I read a fairly comprehensive technical article on this subject. The design is not Toyota's, although it obviously has to be approved by them. If you looked at the design of each separate pedal assembly, they are completely different in the way that they operate. Yet both were acceptable to Toyota, so I guess some of the blame should be placed on them.

If I can find a link to the article, I'll post it for everyone to read.

Edit:

This isn't the same article, but it does go into a little bit of detail on the differences between the two pedals (one is CTS and the other is Denso). It is important to keep in mind that CTS (who manufactures the flawed pedal) made the claim that the pedal is built to Toyota's specifications. While that may be true, the design is their own and has been used in other make/models of cars. Toyota did approve it though. Anyway, here's the link that I found after just a quick search. It's not the best article, but it's still an interesting read:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...r-denso-pedal/

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I am not saying it is a defect with the body of the car but it is possible that it could be a defect with the body of the car. It could be an issue with body flex in the area of the rear lights which could cause pressure from the trunk or bumper to crack the tail lights. Obviously, something is causing a problem on this guys car and Toyota/Subaru does not seem to know how to fix it. Also, everyone knows that this is not an isolated case. Others have had tail lights replaced multiple times.

And if you think that this body does not flex (a lot) there is a video on here somewhere that I watched of a guy running the car through pylons or on a track. The Go-Pro was mounted right behind the drivers door and you could watch the seam around the door get bigger and smaller as the car changed directions. Watching that led to the moment when I said "Aha!" and understood why TRD made the door brace add ons. It is not too big of a stretch to think that similar forces may be damaging the tail light housings. Just sayin.

Sure, all cars flex. But the body around the taillight housings (basically, the hole in the body for the taillights) aren't going to flex at all. And even if they did, you'd need a micrometer to measure that flex. What you're talking about is general chassis flex, which is more of a concern around the doors and such.

I think others have basically nailed it. For the taillights to develop condensation inside, they absolutely have to be compromised as far as sealing. The lens and the housing are two separate parts that need to be sealed properly. Any compromise in that seal will allow condensation to develop. Or a crack anywhere in the lens or the housing will also cause the same problem. How can that happen? I believe that they could in fact be overtightening them, leading to the problems everyone is describing. Or maybe there was a big batch of taillights manufactured with defective seals....or maybe the seals are okay, but they lens and the housing wasn't put together properly during manufacturing. Either way, the problem absolutely has to be with the taillight units, not the car. If the car was somehow flexing enough to damage the taillight seals, EVERYONE would have condensation in their taillights.

[fistpoint]

Originally Posted by Rampage

If that were truly the only cause of the problem then you would think that Toyota and Subaru would have taken extraordianry steps to educate their "trained monkeys" (as someone on here calls them)

I resent your accusation that I called them "trained" monkeys! Trained would imply the opposite of what I actually said and give them credit

Originally Posted by FirestormFRS

I sure hope you're talking about the techs @ the dealer. Let me assure you there are many college graduates working on assembly lines for Subaru.

I have no doubt that this is true. But in regards to the scenario at hand and all the similar stories of the replacement light condensing again, those were obviously a case of an uneducated employee who did not or could not read the TSB instructions. Yea, I was talking about the dealerships. But now that you mention it I'm sure there is at least one guy at the Subaru plant that consumed a little too much wasabi during lunch or the issue wouldn't have surfaced in the first place.

I saw the 1986 Michael Keaton movie Gung Ho, and truly believe it accurately reflects Japanese versus American auto(fat, unionized, drunk) workers. Read your newspapers, tons of stories of US automaker employees clocking in then going to a bar.

[fistpoint]

Originally Posted by White64Goat

Go to this thread: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21868 read the TSB for the tail light condensation and you will see what is causing the problem. Not the seal. Factory installing the light too tight and then the service people doing the same thing. Doubt they will 'Lemon-aide' your car.

There it is, page 10.

Aaaaand, if anyone noticed, the sequence is exactly what everyone is taught NOT to do when tightening multiple screws. I was taught to always use a star pattern, or the one across not next to the screw you just screwed. 1,3,2,4 or similar is how I would have done it without reading the instructions and my work would result in a crack.

[style86]

such a useless thread... if you're not happy with your car, just deal with it silently.