What type of tires would you have on an OEM performance model (TRD/STI)?

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Which Audi models are you talking about? The A3? That's the smallest car (at least in the U.S.). The A4 and A5 are both somewhere in the middle, but they both use the newer MLP platform where the engine is behind the front axle centerline. The only "big" Audi is the A8. But here's a newsflash for you: They all use the same basic quattro system, which is the 5th generation system. The 5th gen system uses a Torsen planetary gearset center diff. The only real difference is that some models come with the sport differential, whichs adds torque vectoring to the rear axle. The only car that uses a different quattro system is the new RS5, which has the 6th generation quattro system. It uses a Crown Gear diff, which is supposed to be stronger than the Torsen diff in the 5th gen system

The A3 and TT (not TTRS) are 100% FWD until they slip, and use a haldex coupler in place of the Torsen center diff.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by wparsons

The A3 and TT (not TTRS) are 100% FWD until they slip, and use a haldex coupler in place of the Torsen center diff.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was talking about longitudinal systems, not transverse. BTW, I'm pretty sure that the Haldex (transverse system) can send 100% to the rear wheels if both fronts lose traction. I'm also fairly sure that it's not 100% to the front under normal driving conditions. I think it's a high bias, but not 100% if I remember correctly.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

The RS5 did not look like and understeering pig in the clip. I know that models is not an understeering pig. But that video just showed how much more off a drivers car the M3 is. Could not help smiling just by looking at how beautifully and controlled the M3 went through the corners.

The disappointing thing about the video I posted is that the Audi driver was obviously not driving at the limit. There wasn't even one second on the video where it looked like the car was at the limit. Not even a hint of loss of traction. Yet the BMW was tail-happy like crazy trying to keep up. The Audi driver's demeanor was completely calm, cool, and collected, and it showed in his driving.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

The disappointing thing about the video I posted is that the Audi driver was obviously not driving at the limit. There wasn't even one second on the video where it looked like the car was at the limit. Not even a hint of loss of traction. Yet the BMW was tail-happy like crazy trying to keep up. The Audi driver's demeanor was completely calm, cool, and collected, and it showed in his driving.

^That is what you saw.

This is what I saw :
Both drivers were going for it. Audi had no oversteer tendencies, and also very little understeer. But you could hear he was pushing. There was tire squeal indicating understeer several times. The car was basically made to handle in a way so that a grandmother could be fast in it. The track also have several twisty corners with quite variable camber that was quite narrow. An AWD system would have a slight traction advantage when having 400++ HP to get into the ground.
The BMW could be driven like in whatever style you wanted. It could oversteer by over accelerating but it was very composed and not dramatic at all when going above the limits. The balance was perfect. The driver could have fun and play around. Even tough he did have some sideways play, he was still able to keep up despite the track favoring AWD and despite that it was down on power! At 1.36 there was a section with almost no grip on the left rear tire, yet the BMW kept up. You also see the BMW driver working the wheel a bit back and forth at around 1.22. Feeling the grip on the front wheels. The car seems more communicative and at that corner he was gaining by utilizing all the grip. You would get more in one with the car with a more communicative steering wheel. You would have to work harder in the BMW, but it would be so much more rewarding driving it on the edge. The Audi just looked like it was on rails, it did not need much input thanks to the safe understeer. The drive looked so boring even tough he was on a perfect twisty track.
M3 looked like the superior drivers car.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Hence the debate and poll.
So what tires would you have chosen? Would it not be great if they actually put on the tires you wanted?
I find the Primacy HP to suit the car perfect. Some don't.
I would also be interested in putting performance tires on the car for competition use, and the performance tires I would need for that would never be equipped on the performance version. So I would not be satisfied with a compromise in the middle.

In my case, low resistanse rolling tires would probably save me enough CO2 taxes to afford high performance tires of my taste for the taxes saved! (not kidding!)

And if the car is so successful with the primacy tires, adding only 20-30 "torqueless" hp in combination with increasing grip with both tires and drivetrain (suspension) modifications would not increase the fun. The car would actually feel more underpowered in terms of grip vs hp. It would than be less playful.
The ability to drive the car on and beyond the limits in corners without feeling like a numb heavy boat on rails are the main reason why this car are doing so well in reviews, and as a drivers car.

The thing is everyone has a different idea of what makes a good performance tire. For example the 4 best street tires are lower production models. RS3, Direzza Star Spec, RE-11, Neova.

RS3 are super sticky, but absolutely worthless unless they are used in dry and above 60 degree dry weather.

RE-11, they cant handle heat, but operate better below 70 degrees.

Star Spec Direzza are good in moderate heat and work well down to 35 degrees but are loud as hell.

My point it it is impossible to prescribe one tire as a performance choice since even the best tires have trade offs.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

My point it it is impossible to prescribe one tire as a performance choice since even the best tires have trade offs.

Agree!

But that is also my reason why they could just fit the car with ECO-tires as the default choice. And have performance tires as an option at a higher price instead of forcing everybody to pay extra for a stock "performance" wheel/tire combo they do not desire.
It looks like they are going for 18" wheels. I know of many who would rather have 17" for the track and the tire of their choice.
I would also guess that 18" wheels with performance tires would end up making the car more expensive than if it was equipped with the stock combo.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

^That is what you saw.

This is what I saw :
Both drivers were going for it. Audi had no oversteer tendencies, and also very little understeer. But you could hear he was pushing. There was tire squeal indicating understeer several times. The car was basically made to handle in a way so that a grandmother could be fast in it. The track also have several twisty corners with quite variable camber that was quite narrow. An AWD system would have a slight traction advantage when having 400++ HP to get into the ground.
The BMW could be driven like in whatever style you wanted. It could oversteer by over accelerating but it was very composed and not dramatic at all when going above the limits. The balance was perfect. The driver could have fun and play around. Even tough he did have some sideways play, he was still able to keep up despite the track favoring AWD and despite that it was down on power! At 1.36 there was a section with almost no grip on the left rear tire, yet the BMW kept up. You also see the BMW driver working the wheel a bit back and forth at around 1.22. Feeling the grip on the front wheels. The car seems more communicative and at that corner he was gaining by utilizing all the grip. You would get more in one with the car with a more communicative steering wheel. You would have to work harder in the BMW, but it would be so much more rewarding driving it on the edge. The Audi just looked like it was on rails, it did not need much input thanks to the safe understeer. The drive looked so boring even tough he was on a perfect twisty track.
M3 looked like the superior drivers car.

You seem to be forgetting that I actually own one of these cars. Trust me, I know how the car behaves at the limit. The Audi driver was absolutely not driving at the limit. You say the car looked like it was on rails and that's a pretty accurate observation. But when driven at the limit, these cars, like all cars, WILL lose traction, whether it be oversteer, understeer, or a four-wheel drift. I didn't see a single example in the entire video where the Audi lost traction. The BMW, on the other hand, had a hard time maintaining traction. Yes, I realize that we're comparing RWD to a much superior AWD chassis. Obviously, your idea of fun is steering with the rear end. My idea of fun is going fast....I don't need to be in a power-induced oversteer slide to go fast or to have fun. With a more aggressive driver in the Audi, the video would have been much more entertaining. The BMW driver had no choice but to drive as aggressive as possible just to keep up.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Agree!

But that is also my reason why they could just fit the car with ECO-tires as the default choice. And have performance tires as an option at a higher price instead of forcing everybody to pay extra for a stock "performance" wheel/tire combo they do not desire.
It looks like they are going for 18" wheels. I know of many who would rather have 17" for the track and the tire of their choice.
I would also guess that 18" wheels with performance tires would end up making the car more expensive than if it was equipped with the stock combo.

The 18" vs 17" vs 16" is a totally different debate

I have see enough of lap times of people with stock cars vs. those with heavily modified versions still running slower than the stock car. It's most often the people who modify everything don't spend the time becoming better drivers first.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

The 18" vs 17" vs 16" is a totally different debate

I find it strongly related to tire choice.
The typical thing for a manufacturer to do when offering performance tires/package is to get lower profile tires than their non performance version. Hence making wheels larger.
The typical thing is also to charge extra for larger wheels, and if it is the default choice, the car will usually get more expensive by default.

[White Shadow]

Check this out:

http://wot.motortrend.com/see-why-ti...#axzz2DTbxyf32

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Check this out:

http://wot.motortrend.com/see-why-ti...#axzz2DTbxyf32

I have seen it a long time ago. Video was useless. Was so much potential in testing different type of tire widths on both 17" and 18" wheels.
High performance tires had more grip.. more cornering force, faster laptimes. Proper Sherlock Holmes work there.

Its almost a tire rack commercial. Of course they want people to change out their tires!

And the irony. Jessi Lang did it. The girl who isnt much of a driver. While Carlos Lago did the FR-S review, also from motortrend he praised the tires and the car just a couple of months earlier. Basically saying they should not be changed.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPoZ1SC8uwk"]2013 Scion FR-S: A New Hope? - Ignition Episode 14 - YouTube[/ame]


I daily drive with Michelin Pilot Sport (in summer, the same tires used in the Jessi Lang clip) and have won a handful of throphies/awards with those tires. Im fully aware of what they are capable of. They are great tires. But I don't think they suit the car that good. The grip to power ratio would just make the car feel more underpowered. They would hide the balance capacities of the car. And the car would loose much of the throttle steer abilities, hence the NA throttle response would not be exploited.

Im also familiar with the Primacy HP on the GT86, which I found very good and quite suitable to the car.

For everyone who have followed this car the last year the majority of reviews have been positive about the tires stock tires.
The 2/2 tests I have seen of the performance version basically said the normal version was more enjoyable. Which is no surprise considering the higher increase in grip and the small increase in power.

High performance tires like Michelin Pilot Super Sport was developed with Porsche, BMW M and Ferrari! For their performance models which often exceed 500+hp a up to several times the torque of the twins.

Those who followed the car since it was released might remember a press release where they specifically had a long powerpoint style presentation. Toyota wanted to make it a drivers cars. There were three things they wanted to avoid.
-AWD
-Turbo (lag)
-High-grip tires
All of which makes the drive feel less engaging and have "ruined" the feel of modern wannabe drivers cars. (at least that is what they were truthfully expressing)

Ill quite a recent Autoexpress article:

Toyota discussed at length its (and Subaru’s) decision to build a lightweight sports car that avoided AWD, turbos and high grip tyres. The end result is a stunning first step, that’s for sure. This car is a blast to drive and will without doubt inject some much-needed adrenalin to a lacklustre line-up.

Here is the extreme opposite of high-grip driving. But the video have several good points.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX-mY"]The Mercedes C63 AMG Experiment - CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS - YouTube[/ame]


Clakson testing the GT86:

"And I havent got to the masterstroke yet... ....tires from a Prius... ...this is just fantastic"

[White Shadow]

So go ahead and put four donuts on the FR-S and it will be bags of fun.......NOT!

LOL

Like I said, I have no interest in playing drift hero. I much prefer performance instead. And to have great performance, you need good traction/grip.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

So go ahead and put four donuts on the FR-S and it will be bags of fun.......NOT!

I would have loved to try that out.. 4 spacesavers on GT86

Would be more like winter driving in summer conditions. Especially if wet.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

I would have loved to try that out.. 4 spacesavers on GT86

Would be more like winter driving in summer conditions. Especially if wet.

Hmm....I was going to say that you should try it out some time, but then I looked under your username and realized that you have a FWD Mini and an old Beetle. Hey, at least the Beetle is RWD though, right? What's it got, like 50 HP?