What type of tires would you have on an OEM performance model (TRD/STI)?

[Vracer111]

I chose 'Eco' tires standard with Performance tires optional, not because 'Eco' tires are better for safety or performance (because they aren't, especially in the wet) but because if you really care about performance (and safety) you know what tires you like and have experience with and it's usually not what the manufacturer picks. You will most likely be getting aftermarket wheels anyways because the stock wheels are usually too heavy (like case with the stock FR-S wheels...)

I've tracked my FR-S with 215/45-17 Kumho XS Max performance summer tires on much lighter wheels (15.6 lb 17x8 Kosei K4R's) and it really balances out the car way more than the stock tire/wheel combo does - perfectly neutral on track with very predictable handling at all times. The ride is also better than stock - absorbs bumps/irregularities better while being more responsive. And in the wet max performance summer tires designed with wet handling in mind will always be the best tire option for my climate (sub tropical with lots of rain) as they will cut through standing water best for hydroplane resistance while also giving lots of grip when turning due to softer compound and tread pattern.

For me, the stock Michelins are fine for the car and really suit it, but I just don't like their low speed grip (or lack thereof) or wet performance. The extreme performance tires I have allow for noticeably better low speed grip, are more capable in the wet, and have better ride characteristic - while costing 1/2 of the stock tires... You do pay with a shorter tire life though, but I really don't like my tires to last much more than 1-2 years anyways. I don't drift with my car nor spin the tires, I just use the rear to steer the car keeping wheel input to a minimal. I find the more precise and quick to respond a car is while remaining stable the more I enjoy it...I like the fact you can just use minuscule pressure adjustment of the accelerator pedal to steer the car without visibly moving the pedal at all while keeping the steering wheel just a hair off center in the opposite direction of the turn if you are doing it right...truly a perfectly neutral handling car with the upgraded tires.

A nice inexpensive max performance rain tire (like the Kumho LE sport) is what I do plan on running daily on the FR-S once I finally decide on a set of street wheels for it.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

RaceR,

Wow, too many words in a row.

Got a bit carried away. I like the subject. You might be able to tell.

Originally Posted by White Shadow

RaceR,
The way I see it, the vast majority of FR-S/BRZ drivers probably wouldn't really drive faster on the streets just because they're riding on performance rubber. But for those who will drive faster, the car would be much easier to handle without the driver losing control like he might have on economy tires.

If doing the same speeds yes. Of course performance tires would be safer. Say, driving performance tires on 6/10 instead of driving ECO-tires on 8/10.

But if going on the limit on both type of tires I disagree. A not too grippy car with predictable slip is much easier to drive at 10/10 than a more performance dedicated setup with performance tires.

Ill quote the piston heads article. They tested the performace TRD version (prototype, not quite sure about the tires). Basically backs up what I say, and even uses one of the twins as an example.

Harder edge
Instead of quickly building up a slip angle calling for an interactive balancing of your steering and throttle inputs in usual GT86 fashion, the TRD car hunkers down and tracks with a precision closer to a track car's. You can still alter the handling balance with your right foot, of course, but you'll probably be going faster, the breakaway will be snappier and you'll have less time to think. There's less feedback thanks to the tied-down suspension but more g-force, and the brakes are magnificent with a powerful, solid, progressive bite.


TRD-branded Brembos among upgradesThis is potentially a faster GT86 around a track, but is it a better one? For the road I suspect not, given that the suspension is pretty firm as standard. And, curiously, I found myself arriving at the circuit's chicane faster in a standard GT86 than in the TRD car. That's probably because the standard car is easier for an average driver like me to drive near its edge, because it tells you more.

Originally Posted by White Shadow

RaceR,Even on a modestly-powered car like the FR-S/BRZ, you'd still be able to drive the car at 8/10ths with the right tires instead of being forced to drive it at 6/10ths because you're on economy tires with low grip.

Totally disagree. (Maybe because your definition of 6/10ths driving is relative to what the car could perform on performance tires?)
All tires can be driven to 10/10ths. ECO tires like the Primacy HP are just easier to drive on that limit than performance tires. People who say otherwise I believe are just not used to squeezing all the grip out of tires. They are probably driving at 8/10ths pushing to 9/10. Saying its the limit. Due to driver error they on occasions gets the rear loose and call it dangerous and that they overstepped the limits.

Originally Posted by White Shadow

BTW, I should also mention that I find no fun in drifting. It's just not my thing. I'd much rather push a car to it's traction limit rather than pushing it slightly beyond its limit and drifting the car all over the place.

Anyone who drives on the limits have do deal with oversteer or understeer. (At least if the car is not really underpowered compared to traction/grip) Its not like your a drifter just because you have some oversteer when grip driving.
I would say oversteer should be your friend, understeer should be your enemy. But you don't really want to hang out with any of them. Just balance in the middle. But if you have to choose, you should choose oversteer as your friend. And if he should be your friend, he better not bite.

Usually when people say they don't like oversteer (in a RWD), and are grip drivers but don't oversteer in a street car on street tires (with some power) Than MOST are really not pushing and driving properly at 10/10ths. Those people rarely are among the fastest guys in both dry and wet conditions based on my experience.
I have seen several people who say they are not into oversteer just because they don't master it. That have sadly made the expression "Im a grip driver, I dont do oversteer" to be the worst excuse in the world for saying. "Im only able to push to 9/10ths, otherwise I suck".
Ironically, those drivers have upgraded to the most sticky street tires they can find... So they made something they don't master a little harder and more dangerous. And its often the same guys who needs more power no matter what vehicle they drive.
People might disagree with me, that's fine. But that is my experience.

This is the most extreme video I know of with "oversteer grip driving". Look at his steering wheel compared to how the corners go! I love it!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_1KP24T-A"]Porsche 911 - Flying the Eau Rouge sideways - On the Limit. - YouTube[/ame]

Now that is going 10/10ths, but also above the limits and in an effective way! Old Porsches are something to their own tough.
But generally, in a RWD road car with road tires. A slight slip angle of oversteer is faster than a slight slip angle of understeer. And way more fun if you are comfortable with it.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Totally disagree. (Maybe because your definition of 6/10ths driving is relative to what the car could perform on performance tires?)
All tires can be driven to 10/10ths.

What I meant was driving to the car's capability, not the capability of the tires. Yes, I realize that tires are the limiting factor for most cars, but what I'm saying is that I can drive my car at 8/10ths when I'm on my summer rubber and I'd have to tone it down (say, 6/10ths) when I'm on my winter rubber.

Or to put it another way, 10/10ths on summer rubber versus 6/10ths on winter tires is a big difference in speed/performance when compared on the same exact car.

Lets say we had a new Cayman R. First we slapped a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports on it and took it out on some twisty mountain roads. If we could drive the car at 8/10ths (again, yes, the tires are the limiting factor, but I'm assuming that no street tire will allow us to drive that car at 100% of it's capability) because that's all the tires will allow, would you agree that a set of winter tires would force us to drive the car at a level much less than 8/10ths? That's what I'm trying to explain. Sure, we could drive the car to the point that the tires are at 10/10ths, but obviously the car would be going quite a bit faster when driven at the limit of the performance tires as compared to the winter tires.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Anyone who drives on the limits have do deal with oversteer or understeer. (At least if the car is not really underpowered compared to traction/grip) Its not like your a drifter just because you have some oversteer when grip driving.
I would say oversteer should be your friend, understeer should be your enemy. But you don't really want to hang out with any of them. Just balance in the middle. But if you have to choose, you should choose oversteer as your friend. And if he should be your friend, he better not bite.

Usually when people say they don't like oversteer (in a RWD), and are grip drivers but don't oversteer in a street car on street tires (with some power) Than MOST are really not pushing and driving properly at 10/10ths. Those people rarely are among the fastest guys in both dry and wet conditions based on my experience.
I have seen several people who say they are not into oversteer just because they don't master it. That have sadly made the expression "Im a grip driver, I dont do oversteer" to be the worst excuse in the world for saying. "Im only able to push to 9/10ths, otherwise I suck".
Ironically, those drivers have upgraded to the most sticky street tires they can find... So they made something they don't master a little harder and more dangerous. And its often the same guys who needs more power no matter what vehicle they drive.
People might disagree with me, that's fine. But that is my experience.

.

Couple of things.....first, I was really talking about street driving, not so much as track driving. On public roads, not many people are dumb enough to push their cars to the limit. Secondly, when I mentioned "drift hero", I'm not talking about someone who is right at (or slightly beyond) the traction limits of his car. I'm talking about the guys who are purposefully drifting and don't want to maintain traction on their rear wheels. That's what I meant when I was talking about not being into drifting. At the same time, I've pushed my car beyond it's traction capabilities on many occasions, but not in the way a drifter intentionally does. For me, it's because I was at the ragged edge of grip and I went a bit too far. Sure, oversteer is preferably, especially since I grew up driving muscle cars. I learned early on what it's like to break the rear tires loose and how to control it.

Ironically, I really grew to love RWD-biased AWD vehicles....but it HAS to be RWD biased, otherwise it's not as much fun.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

What I meant was driving to the car's capability, not the capability of the tires. Yes, I realize that tires are the limiting factor for most cars, but what I'm saying is that I can drive my car at 8/10ths when I'm on my summer rubber and I'd have to tone it down (say, 6/10ths) when I'm on my winter rubber.

Or to put it another way, 10/10ths on summer rubber versus 6/10ths on winter tires is a big difference in speed/performance when compared on the same exact car.

Lets say we had a new Cayman R. First we slapped a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports on it and took it out on some twisty mountain roads. If we could drive the car at 8/10ths (again, yes, the tires are the limiting factor, but I'm assuming that no street tire will allow us to drive that car at 100% of it's capability) because that's all the tires will allow, would you agree that a set of winter tires would force us to drive the car at a level much less than 8/10ths? That's what I'm trying to explain. Sure, we could drive the car to the point that the tires are at 10/10ths, but obviously the car would be going quite a bit faster when driven at the limit of the performance tires as compared to the winter tires.

yeah I though that was your point of view.

I think its strange to measure driving at say 10/10ths based on the assumed grip level of a certain type of tire, which is not defined.
Im definitively not used to saying I was driving my winter tires at 3/10ths the day it was icy roads. 2 days after it was just snow, so i managed 5/10ths. And then summer came and I managed 8/10ths. Then i put on track tires and managed 10/10ths. Its just complicated and does not say much when you were really pushing to the limits in all the examples.

Driving at 9/10 should be relative the maximum grip of a tire or the ability for a driver to push to 90% of his ability/capacity under the conditions he was driving at. At least that is how I see it and considered the common way to look at it.
I may be wrong, but never heard of your way of looking at it.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Couple of things.....first, I was really talking about street driving, not so much as track driving. On public roads, not many people are dumb enough to push their cars to the limit. Secondly, when I mentioned "drift hero", I'm not talking about someone who is right at (or slightly beyond) the traction limits of his car. I'm talking about the guys who are purposefully drifting and don't want to maintain traction on their rear wheels. That's what I meant when I was talking about not being into drifting. At the same time, I've pushed my car beyond it's traction capabilities on many occasions, but not in the way a drifter intentionally does. For me, it's because I was at the ragged edge of grip and I went a bit too far. Sure, oversteer is preferably, especially since I grew up driving muscle cars. I learned early on what it's like to break the rear tires loose and how to control it.

Ironically, I really grew to love RWD-biased AWD vehicles....but it HAS to be RWD biased, otherwise it's not as much fun.

I started of driving RWD cars in snowy conditions without ABS or any electronics. Have mostly driven RWD cars without electronics (mostly with ABS) Lots of sideways fun in slippery conditions.
Nice hard packed snow are my favorite conditions to push RWD cars on. You can get the car to do whatever you want, and steer it quite effortlessly with the throttle. Dry summer conditions with high performance tires in a low/medium powered car is basically the opposite. Putting high performance tires on a medium powered car is like adding stability control that never can be turned off in my opinion. It makes the car more stable and removes drama. It removes the need for what i consider finesse and driver skill.

I was driving on a larger (public) outdoor go-kart track this summer just for fun. I was only used to some smaller indoor tracks. But that track with those karts were not much fun at all. Most of the corners could be done at full throttle. You only had to apply brakes a little 3 times on one lap. There was no finesse, no driver skill was needed. It was just point and steer and mostly full throttle. Never visiting that track again. :p

You have some good examples of AWD vehicles that is rear biased (and have decent corner entry abilities too)?

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

yeah I though that was your point of view.

I think its strange to measure driving at say 10/10ths based on the assumed grip level of a certain type of tire, which is not defined.
Im definitively not used to saying I was driving my winter tires at 3/10ths the day it was icy roads. 2 days after it was just snow, so i managed 5/10ths. And then summer came and I managed 8/10ths. Then i put on track tires and managed 10/10ths. Its just complicated and does not say much when you were really pushing to the limits in all the examples.

Driving at 9/10 should be relative the maximum grip of a tire or the ability for a driver to push to 90% of his ability/capacity under the conditions he was driving at. At least that is how I see it and considered the common way to look at it.
I may be wrong, but never heard of your way of looking at it.

Well, how else would you be able to express or compare the limits? Like I said, the limit is obviously dictated by the tires, but if we're comparing different tires on the same car, then I think it's safe to make a comparison or at least say that you can drive the car at, say, 8/10s on one set of tires but only 6/10ths on another set of tires. Maybe a more accurate way to say it is that you can simply go faster with performance tires than you can with non-performance tires. All I know is that I can drive my car faster/harder when its wearing summer tires than I can when it's wearing winter tires.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

You have some good examples of RWD biased AWD cars?

Sure, my car. Audi. Its a RWD-biased quattro system. Up to 85% drive force can be sent to the rear. Under normal driving, I believe it's 65% to the rear, but I'd have to look that up to be sure.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Well, how else would you be able to express or compare the limits? Like I said, the limit is obviously dictated by the tires, but if we're comparing different tires on the same car, then I think it's safe to make a comparison or at least say that you can drive the car at, say, 8/10s on one set of tires but only 6/10ths on another set of tires. Maybe a more accurate way to say it is that you can simply go faster with performance tires than you can with non-performance tires. All I know is that I can drive my car faster/harder when its wearing summer tires than I can when it's wearing winter tires.

I would use laptime or corner speed as a measurement for what a certain tire can do if comparing it against others if that is the goal.
1-10/10ths would describe how hard you push or how much grip you use.

Some cars love to be pushed above 8/10ths, some does not. The speed is not very relevant. Its how cars behave on the limit that counts.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Sure, my car. Audi. Its a RWD-biased quattro system. Up to 85% drive force can be sent to the rear. Under normal driving, I believe it's 65% to the rear, but I'd have to look that up to be sure.

Not a fan.. Too much understeer in general. Altough anything is possible in snowy conditions. Quattro is quite good there.

If going for a modern AWD I would rather go with BMW X-drive, more sporty in my opinion. But not even close to the fun of a RWD.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

I would use laptime or corner speed as a measurement for what a certain tire can do if comparing it against others if that is the goal.
1-10/10ths would describe how hard you push or how much grip you use.

Some cars love to be pushed above 8/10ths, some does not. The speed is not very relevant. Its how cars behave on the limit that counts.

Again, I'm talking real world...not time trials on tracks, or using radar guns to measure corner speeds. That's why I'm saying that I can drive my car closer to its limits with one set of tires over another. Using ALL of the available grip on each set of tires would result in significantly difference performance out of the car, no?

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by White Shadow

Again, I'm talking real world...not time trials on tracks, or using radar guns to measure corner speeds. That's why I'm saying that I can drive my car closer to its limits with one set of tires over another. Using ALL of the available grip on each set of tires would result in significantly difference performance out of the car, no?

I don't measure performance in speed. I get your point tough..

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Not a fan.. Too much understeer in general. Altough anything is possible in snowy conditions. Quattro is quite good there.

If going for a modern AWD I would rather go with BMW X-drive, more sporty in my opinion. But not even close to the fun of a RWD.

Actually, the car tends to oversteer, not understeer. That's what I'd expect in a RWD-biased AWD car. Either way, the car really has an amazing level of grip before it breaks loose. My Audi came with 255/35/19 summer rubber and the sport suspension package, so it has more grip than average.

[White Shadow]

Originally Posted by RaceR

I don't measure performance in speed. I get your point tough..

So you're measuring the performance of the tires, not the car. Is that what you're saying?