supercharger or turbo?

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by 2forme

They've got a street disc which should hold your Vortech kit. You have the option to buy with a flywheel as well. 750$ I think, but don't quote me on that.

Here:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22157

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 2forme

FWIW I did a quick, rough torque graph between the Vortech SC, AVO turbo kit (92 octane) and what my car did on Visconti e85/AFE/SRT.

I added 4% to the dynojet numbers to account for the higher numbers that dynapacks produce.

Your graph shows the E85 tune going to over 160# of torque for almost the whole powerband. The chart from V shows the torque topping out at 149.64, and even that is not reached until nearly redline. How did you get so much more torque?

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Pete

Your graph shows the E85 tune going to over 160# of torque for almost the whole powerband. The chart from V shows the torque topping out at 149.64, and even that is not reached until nearly redline. How did you get so much more torque?

Check out my Intake Battle thread in Engine mods. I have the dyno posted of my best e85 run with V. My motor put down 162 ft lbs peak when SAE corrected.

I noted above that I added 4% to the torque figures to account for the differences between dynapacks and dynojets. Dynojets on average read about 8-12% lower than dynapacks because dynojets account for rolling resistance at the wheel, whereas dynapacks just measure power at the hub (with the wheel removed). Perrin noted that their dynapacks are calibrated to read a little lower than typical dynapacks, so I only adjusted by 4% instead of 8-12.

Make sense now?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Check out my Intake Battle thread in Engine mods. I have the dyno posted of my best e85 run with V. My motor put down 162 ft lbs peak when SAE corrected.

I noted above that I added 4% to the torque figures to account for the differences between dynapacks and dynojets. Dynojets on average read about 8-12% lower than dynapacks because dynojets account for rolling resistance at the wheel, whereas dynapacks just measure power at the hub (with the wheel removed). Perrin noted that their dynapacks are calibrated to read a little lower than typical dynapacks, so I only adjusted by 4% instead of 8-12.

Make sense now?

I just read your thread, nice write up BTW. I saw your best V tuned 93 octane run @149.23 TQ , still impressive and I can see how E85 would boost that considerably. Congrats on a very nice NA build! I would get one of those Takeda intakes if I wasn't going FI.

I wonder if V would dyno tune one of these Vortech S/C kits for 93...Perrin hasn't released a tune yet for their kits, the only one available to order is the "tuner" kit. I bet that when they do it will be a 91 octane tune for Cali.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Pete

I just read your thread, nice write up BTW. I saw your best V tuned 93 octane run @149.23 TQ , still impressive and I can see how E85 would boost that considerably. Congrats on a very nice NA build! I would get one of those Takeda intakes if I wasn't going FI.

I wonder if V would dyno tune one of these Vortech S/C kits for 93...Perrin hasn't released a tune yet for their kits, the only one available to order is the "tuner" kit. I bet that when they do it will be a 91 octane tune for Cali.

Yea he would. I already asked, should I decide to go SC.

[gmookher]

That should be interesting, to see what Vortech tunes for as their STG1, what Perrin gets as 'his STG1'and what V gets when you get it tuned by him.

[AVOturboworld]

Originally Posted by Pete

Also, if I wanted to make AVO's kit pass emissions(in a non-CARB state), is that possible or what could I do to make that happen in the most cost effective way?

In Washington state, I've passed one of our test vehicles for another turbo kit, a 2007 Subaru Outback 2.5i (currently at 200,000 miles...) through emission testing with no issues. With newer cars, the emission check in most areas is just a simple OBD-II check for CEL's related to emissions, and a sniffer up the tailpipe. A well tuned car that still has at least one cat (sport or stock) will pass the sniffer easily.

[drifter]

Originally Posted by AVOturboworld

In Washington state, I've passed one of our test vehicles for another turbo kit, a 2007 Subaru Outback 2.5i (currently at 200,000 miles...) through emission testing with no issues. With newer cars, the emission check in most areas is just a simple OBD-II check for CEL's related to emissions, and a sniffer up the tailpipe. A well tuned car that still has at least one cat (sport or stock) will pass the sniffer easily.

and for us in CA?

[RedLeader]

Originally Posted by drifter

and for us in CA?

The short answer: Move.

The long answer: These companies have to balance the desire to sell their items to people in all states, against the hassle of attaining the CARB certification for their items. This usually means making huge compromises that people in non-CARB states don't want, and increasing the price to cover this extra development. Two kits could be made, but that's more money and more R&D that some companies may not be willing to deal with. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is what it is. Not everyone is going to pursue CARB certification for everything they sell.

Sometimes people will even still buy the items despite their not being CARB certified and just annually swap parts for inspections, and try very hard not to get pulled over. Still others register their vehicles out of state to avoid the problem all together.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, just offering an explanation as I see it. YMMV

[jiaim]

A supercharger like Innovate's should get carb since the stock airbox and stock cats are maintained.

[gmookher]

no one just 'gets' carb approval

carb approval costs vendors, they need to get sae tests, submit reports, etc
a turbo vendor or sc vendor can apply for exemption here

carb approved parts have been dyno'd to the carb board

you cant get ticketed for parts from carb approved vendors
more history of vortech pursuing carb approval than avo

example, many vendors sell a high flo cat by magnaflo, its not carb approved
will you pass emissions? yes, probably, with no issues, but if they elect to fail you on visual, they can, and may; tho I dont live in CA and cant tell you how often that does or does not happen

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/catrescind.pdf

[drifter]

Originally Posted by RedLeader

The short answer: Move.

The long answer: These companies have to balance the desire to sell their items to people in all states, against the hassle of attaining the CARB certification for their items. This usually means making huge compromises that people in non-CARB states don't want, and increasing the price to cover this extra development. Two kits could be made, but that's more money and more R&D that some companies may not be willing to deal with. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is what it is. Not everyone is going to pursue CARB certification for everything they sell.

Sometimes people will even still buy the items despite their not being CARB certified and just annually swap parts for inspections, and try very hard not to get pulled over. Still others register their vehicles out of state to avoid the problem all together.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, just offering an explanation as I see it. YMMV

don't think you're an ass, but, one thing to keep in mind is that a good portion of FRS/BRS's were sold in CA, a state with the biggest population. (why do you think CA gets 56 electorial votes compared to many states that get only 3?)

There are approx. 200 Toyota and Subaru Dealerships alone in CA. Don' t know the total amount sold, but if every dealership sold just a few, that adds up to a lot of potential profit for vendors who consider our regulations.

Move? well, if it wasn't for livning in CA and making money off properties going high in value (before the crashed) I would have never been able to buy this as a second car anyway

[Grip Ronin]

i vote supercharger, if your not aiming for high power or drag racing. boost response better but maintenance is my big issue.bolt on turbos just aren't that great for everyday use. just my 2Cents having 2 turbo cars right now

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Grip Ronin

i vote supercharger, if your not aiming for high power or drag racing. boost response better but maintenance is my big issue.bolt on turbos just aren't that great for everyday use. just my 2Cents having 2 turbo cars right now

I feel like with the current options, most would be tired of the SC after a few weeks. I mean, it's $5000 for something that makes the same power up to 5200 RPM (read: day to day driving range) as an E85 flash. Yea, it's fun... but I would be left wondering if $4000 is really worth 15 ft-lbs of torque and 2000 RPM of higher power over the E85 tune.

I'm intrigued to see what further tuning/twin screw options produce.

It doesn't matter to me right now, as I'm waiting until spring since my car is going away for winter before any of these kits will be available. I think a lot of people are in the same boat.