Tesla Model S

[7thgear]

I see a lot of hate for the breakthroughs Tesla (the company) is making in bringing electric powered cars to mass appeal.

If i had a ton of cash i would buy any Tesla product right here and now just to support the manufacturer of the future.

Those of you who are cynical or downright ignorant are making me

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by RaceR

In terms of emissions output in the US, what are the government doing? I always have the impression that the US is quite far behind/ quite loose in terms of making fuel efficient cars attractive/making gas guzzlers expensive.
I find it funny when US people say that the FR-S is very fuel efficient at 181g CO2 per km. Or that they bought the FR-S to save fuel.

Once again thanks for all the interesting info! I hadn't realized that diesel is still so high on NOx compared to gasoline. I guess it's because I never really saw the numbers, just read the hype about how diesel is now cleaner than it used to be, so thank you for enlightening me

Yes-oh-yes, the US is far behind most of Europe on environmental protection in general - for example, we are just now starting to eliminate give-away plastic shopping bags in a few cities in the SF Bay Area. I can remember when Switzerland did the same thing - back in 1985 or thereabouts. And with no fuss. And as you can see here or on most any car forum, Americans love their cars, their open roads, their V8s... they're not giving up on their cultural essence without a fight. But yeah lol the concept of a sports car that sips fuel is incongruous, even more so the notion of buying such a car primarily for its fuel economy. That said, it truly is above average here on fuel economy. It's fashionable now for car makers to be able to claim EPA 40mpg highway rating, but the real-life average of those cars is much lower, and other sporty cars get more like low- to mid-20's.

Just today in the San Francisco Chronicle there's an article that relates to this discussion. Seems they've launched a trial selling 20% algae-based biodiesel at a few mainstream filling stations. This took me entirely by surprise, I'll admit. There's been plenty of theoretical talk of using algae to generate fuels, but this is the first I've heard of it actually being available through mainstream channels to average consumers. It actually looks promising. One point they make in the article that others have said and deserves reiterating is that quite likely no one single fuel solution will emerge but rather multiple solutions will exist side-by-side.

edit: sorry the quoted article is so hard to read. The website deliberately obfuscates the "print friendly" page and I tried fixing it but it was taking too long. If it's too unreadable please use the link

http://www.sfgate.com/science/articl...ea-4035462.php

Algae-based fuel on sale in Bay Area
Peter Fimrite
Published 10:48 p.m., Tuesday, November 13, 2012

Big oil took a small but significant hit Tuesday when Bay Area motorists began filling up their gas tanks with algae, becoming the first
private citizens in the world to use a domestically grown product that could revolutionize the fuel industry.

The first alternative fuel made from algae went on sale at four Bay Area gas stations in what advocates insist is the first wave in a tide of
clean fuel that will hit the marketplace.

"Today, at this station, we are putting a stake in the ground," said Matt Horton, chief executive officer of Propel Fuels, as he prepared to
fill the first tank with the algae-based product at the Valero station on Whipple Avenue in Redwood City. "We hope to build hundreds
of stations like this in California."

The fuel, which is actually 20 percent algae and 80 percent petroleum, is available to any vehicle that runs on diesel, and it spews much
less smog and ozone-depleting greenhouse gases, Horton said.

Clean, affordable fuel scarce
There are now more than a million Californians driving alternative-fuel-ready vehicles, but there is not enough clean fuel, and the
supply line is virtually nonexistent, Horton said.
The product, made from algae grown by the South San Francisco company Solazyme, has been used in trials by the military and
industrial companies. The pilot program will make it available on the retail market for a month at Propel's clean fuel fill-up tanks at
stations in Redwood City, San Jose, Berkeley and Oakland. After a month, a decision will be made on whether to continue offering
the product.

The algae fuel, called Biodiesel B20, was being sold for a little less than $4.25 a gallon in Redwood City. That's the same as the average
price for diesel fuel in California.
"We're talking about fuels that are offered at standard diesel pricing," said Bob Ames, vice president in charge of fuels and
commercialization for Solazyme.

Created with fermentation
Ames said the algae oil is made in stainless steel vessels at Solazyme's plant in Peoria, Ill., using a fermentation process in which a
specific organism, the name of which he would not reveal, is combined with sugar. He said the company tested many strains of algae
over the years to determine which one they could reproduce quickly and repeatedly.
The resulting oil is processed into different kinds of fuel, including jet and marine-grade fuels, at a biodiesel plant in California. The
end product produces 30 percent fewer particulates, 20 percent less carbon monoxide and 10 percent fewer hydrocarbons than other
diesel and biodiesel fuels.

It is an example, he said, of how to use "some of the world's smallest microorganisms to solve some of the world's greatest problems."
The new gas falls in line with California's "low-carbon fuel standard," which forces fuel producers to lower the amount of greenhouse
gas emissions in their products 10 percent by 2020. In January, the California Air Resources Board approved strict rules designed to
cut in half current vehicle emissions by 2025. It means automakers will have to cut exhaust by two-thirds and begin mass-producing
cars that do not run on gasoline.

The idea behind the requirements, which will get increasingly strict as the years go by, is to promote innovation in batteries, hydrogen
fuel cells and plug-in hybrid technology and cut the state's dependence on oil. The goal is to have at least 80 percent of the state's fleet
of new vehicles running on clean fuel technology by 2050.
Low-carbon biofuels will undoubtedly be part of the solution, according to experts.

Supplying to meet demand
Corn, cooking grease and other products have been tried. Currently, oil companies are experimenting with biofuel blends, including
cellulosic ethanol, made from grass, crop stubble or woody plants, but there are serious questions about whether the supply can meet
demand. As things are, motorists primarily use diesel because that is what is available.
Algae-based fuel on sale in Bay Area - SFGate http://www.sfgate.com/science/articl...n-sale-in-Bay-...
1 of 2 2012-11-14 11:20
There are indications that things are beginning to turn around. Emeryville's Amyris Inc. formed a joint venture late last year with
French oil giant Total to bring renewable diesel and jet fuel to the global market.

Propel is trying to provide infrastructure. The company now has a network of 29 gas stations, including seven in the Bay Area, where it
leases space and offers different types of biodiesel.
Horton said most diesel vehicles could run on 100 percent algae fuel, but doing that would result in higher costs to the consumer. Also,
he said, many automakers oppose allowing a mix higher than 20 percent. The goal, Horton said, is to increase the blend as the supply
and demand increase over time.

"It really is an access question that we're working to remedy," he said. "None of these fuels are a silver bullet that is going to fix the
problem and get us off oil. It's going to be a variety of fuels. Our task is to drive awareness. When consumers know it is available, that it
is priced right and it reduces carbon emissions, they will use it."

Bay Area stations
Where to buy Biodiesel B20:
Berkeley: 76, 849 University Ave.
Oakland: Chevron, 350 Grand Ave.
Redwood City: Valero, 503 Whipple Ave.
San Jose: 76, 1002 N First St.

Peter Fimrite is a San Francisco Chronicle staff writer. E-mail: pfimrite@sfchronicle.com Twitter: @pfimrite

Ads by Yahoo!
© 2012 Hearst Communications Inc.
Algae-based fuel on sale in Bay Area - SFGate http://www.sfgate.com/science/articl...n-sale-in-Bay-...
2 of 2 2012-11-14 11:20

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Once again thanks for all the interesting info! I hadn't realized that diesel is still so high on NOx compared to gasoline. I guess it's because I never really saw the numbers, just read the hype about how diesel is now cleaner than it used to be, so thank you for enlightening me

If you want enlightenment check out this post. I used some time in the PDF. Head was working overtime so had to stop taking snapshots from it.. But some interesting stuff there! Maybe not that interesting for people in the US tough..

Originally Posted by einzlr

Yes-oh-yes, the US is far behind most of Europe on environmental protection in general - for example, we are just now starting to eliminate give-away plastic shopping bags in a few cities in the SF Bay Area. I can remember when Switzerland did the same thing - back in 1985 or thereabouts. And with no fuss. And as you can see here or on most any car forum, Americans love their cars, their open roads, their V8s... they're not giving up on their cultural essence without a fight. But yeah lol the concept of a sports car that sips fuel is incongruous, even more so the notion of buying such a car primarily for its fuel economy. That said, it truly is above average here on fuel economy. It's fashionable now for car makers to be able to claim EPA 40mpg highway rating, but the real-life average of those cars is much lower, and other sporty cars get more like low- to mid-20's.

Its quite normal that cars don't reach their estimated fuel figures. Some are worse than others. Ill just add 10% to get more real life figures. There are talk about a new way of measuring it in EU. Might arrive in 2020.

Originally Posted by einzlr

Just today in the San Francisco Chronicle there's an article that relates to this discussion. Seems they've launched a trial selling 20% algae-based biodiesel at a few mainstream filling stations. This took me entirely by surprise, I'll admit. There's been plenty of theoretical talk of using algae to generate fuels, but this is the first I've heard of it actually being available through mainstream channels to average consumers. It actually looks promising. One point they make in the article that others have said and deserves reiterating is that quite likely no one single fuel solution will emerge but rather multiple solutions will exist side-by-side.

edit: sorry the quoted article is so hard to read. The website deliberately obfuscates the "print friendly" page and I tried fixing it but it was taking too long. If it's too unreadable please use the link

Interesting. I've never heard of that. Thanks!

[blu_]

I would consider buying the Model S if I was in the market for a luxury sedan.

The amount of rage in this thread is pretty amazing, considering how sweet the car is.

[rice_classic]

The other side of this "non-CO2" producing car craze is the discussion around energy that supports it. It gets the conversation about energy as a whole moving not just in cars but homes, businesses and the power grid in itself. Good stuff all around. I think conversations of this nature and on the national stage are very good for the future of this country/planet/humanity.

Some things I would like to see more of:
1: Diesel and Biodiesel and cars from Japan/'Merica that have these engines (small cars too and sporty cars). I hate the idea that if I want a regular sedan with a diesel I have to buy German. Just not a fan of German cars.
2: Electric cars and Electric cars with IC generators. My favorite form of generators were those Micro-Turbines Jaguar had in their prototype. That was cool.
3: Algae. It seems like every time I open a Popular Science magazine I'm reading about Algae ethanol or Algae Jet fuel (Some airline is now going to use 60% of their fuel from this source). I really like the idea of using a combustible fuel that was created by first removing carbon from the atmosphere (photosynthesis in the Algae).
4: More solar/wind/hydro for non-car related applications and the energy grid in general. I also want to see this technology advance to the point that we don't necessarily have to rely on the "grid" but instead have localized options where every single family home can produce it's own green energy.


What I would like to see less of:
1: Wars being fought over money
2: Our economy being dependent on Oil being traded in our reserve currency (which leads to war too).
3: Coal fired plants, Fracking.
4: Corn Ethanol. it's bad for the economy, the food source, and the environment not to mention it's an extremely inefficient method of producing ethanol compared to sugar/hemp/algae.

Once again, all opinions, all late night internet pontifications.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

The other side of this "non-CO2" producing car craze is the discussion around energy that supports it. It gets the conversation about energy as a whole moving not just in cars but homes, businesses and the power grid in itself. Good stuff all around. I think conversations of this nature and on the national stage are very good for the future of this country/planet/humanity.

Some things I would like to see more of:
1: Diesel and Biodiesel and cars from Japan/'Merica that have these engines (small cars too and sporty cars). I hate the idea that if I want a regular sedan with a diesel I have to buy German. Just not a fan of German cars.
2: Electric cars and Electric cars with IC generators. My favorite form of generators were those Micro-Turbines Jaguar had in their prototype. That was cool.
3: Algae. It seems like every time I open a Popular Science magazine I'm reading about Algae ethanol or Algae Jet fuel (Some airline is now going to use 60% of their fuel from this source). I really like the idea of using a combustible fuel that was created by first removing carbon from the atmosphere (photosynthesis in the Algae).
4: More solar/wind/hydro for non-car related applications and the energy grid in general. I also want to see this technology advance to the point that we don't necessarily have to rely on the "grid" but instead have localized options where every single family home can produce it's own green energy.


What I would like to see less of:
1: Wars being fought over money
2: Our economy being dependent on Oil being traded in our reserve currency (which leads to war too).
3: Coal fired plants, Fracking.
4: Corn Ethanol. it's bad for the economy, the food source, and the environment not to mention it's an extremely inefficient method of producing ethanol compared to sugar/hemp/algae.

Once again, all opinions, all late night internet pontifications.

The algae thing interests me, but nothing seems to be progressing. I've heard get oil from them, then ferment the leftovers to make ethanol, then biodiesel can be made from the oil and ethanol. But it seems that you have to put in a lot of energy to actually get the oil out of it. First the drying, then a high pressure press to break the cell walls to squeeze out the oil, or chemical processes.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

3: Algae. It seems like every time I open a Popular Science magazine I'm reading about Algae ethanol or Algae Jet fuel (Some airline is now going to use 60% of their fuel from this source). I really like the idea of using a combustible fuel that was created by first removing carbon from the atmosphere (photosynthesis in the Algae).

That very much appeals to me as well. Did you see my post on the previous page? Right now today in the SF Bay Area at normal gas stations it is possible to fill your tank with "B20", the name given to a blend of 20% algae-derived diesel and 80% normal petroleum-based diesel. They're running a one-month pilot at a handful of gas stations after which they'll evaluate how to go forward. This is no longer eco-freaks stealing used deep-fry oil from the waste vats; it's commercial fuel which can be pumped from normal pumps the exactly the same as traditional diesel, and even at essentially the same price (hence the blend, for now). It's pretty neat

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by einzlr

That very much appeals to me as well. Did you see my post on the previous page? Right now today in the SF Bay Area at normal gas stations it is possible to fill your tank with "B20", the name given to a blend of 20% algae-derived diesel and 80% normal petroleum-based diesel. They're running a one-month pilot at a handful of gas stations after which they'll evaluate how to go forward. This is no longer eco-freaks stealing used deep-fry oil from the waste vats; it's commercial fuel which can be pumped from normal pumps the exactly the same as traditional diesel, and even at essentially the same price (hence the blend, for now). It's pretty neat

The algae stuff in that article is weird. The sugar part doesn't sound correct or efficient. They don't mention the energy consumed in the extraction process, plus mention growing it in stainless tanks (how does light get in?).

Fishy and hype-y.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by einzlr

This is no longer eco-freaks stealing used deep-fry oil from the waste vats; it's commercial fuel which can be pumped from normal pumps the exactly the same as traditional diesel, and even at essentially the same price (hence the blend, for now). It's pretty neat

I like it! Now I wish the 10% ethanol in my fuel was from Algae instead of Corn!

Also, I'm no stranger to Eco-Freaks (I mean that as a term of endearment) as I live in Seattle. We have some pumps around that sell straight bio-diesel and seems like the last few times I've driven by them it's cheaper than regular diesel.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I like it! Now I wish the 10% ethanol in my fuel was from Algae instead of Corn!

Also, I'm no stranger to Eco-Freaks (I mean that as a term of endearment) as I live in Seattle. We have some pumps around that sell straight bio-diesel and seems like the last few times I've driven by them it's cheaper than regular diesel.

Hey well, maybe soon it will be (the algae ethanol)! The way I see it, it depends on the outcome of the pilot trial. If all goes well, I'd fully expect to see B20 expand in this area, followed by general expansion both in distribution (and eventually production), as well as expansion into other algae-derived fuels. I'll admit I love the idea of having our cars and our clean air too (not to mention independence from the volatile crude oil market).

What's the Seattle bio-diesel made from? Restaurant waste grease? That's available in SF and I believe Berkeley as well, but generally the pumps are in secret back alleys that only a select few are privy to. I love the idea of re-using something that otherwise mucks up the waste disposal system, but as folks are quick to point out, the supply is fairly limited so it'll remain a niche.

[Razing]

Tesla Motors is the fastest growing company in the good old US of A. They've grown 279684% since 2007. I just got a list of the top 500 fastest growing companies in the nation according to the Deloitte Fast 500. My workplace is now on that list too. We got a little plaque.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Hey well, maybe soon it will be (the algae ethanol)! The way I see it, it depends on the outcome of the pilot trial. If all goes well, I'd fully expect to see B20 expand in this area, followed by general expansion both in distribution (and eventually production), as well as expansion into other algae-derived fuels. I'll admit I love the idea of having our cars and our clean air too (not to mention independence from the volatile crude oil market).

What's the Seattle bio-diesel made from? Restaurant waste grease? That's available in SF and I believe Berkeley as well, but generally the pumps are in secret back alleys that only a select few are privy to. I love the idea of re-using something that otherwise mucks up the waste disposal system, but as folks are quick to point out, the supply is fairly limited so it'll remain a niche.

My former college auto instructor converted his Jetta to run on B20; and we helped him convert his F350 to B20 also.
He had the tanks and everything needed to filter the waste oil in his garage. Car always smelled like french fries lol, but other than that he didn't have to pay for fuel. He'd just head to his local pizza/italian shop and they'd toss him the waste oil that they'd otherwise have to pay to dispose of about once a month.

If anyone plans on doing the swap to one of their diesel vehicles, don't be alarmed the first time you check the filters. Stuff works like drain-o the first time and cleans the shit out of your fuel supply system.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Hey well, maybe soon it will be (the algae ethanol)! The way I see it, it depends on the outcome of the pilot trial. If all goes well, I'd fully expect to see B20 expand in this area, followed by general expansion both in distribution (and eventually production), as well as expansion into other algae-derived fuels. I'll admit I love the idea of having our cars and our clean air too (not to mention independence from the volatile crude oil market).

What's the Seattle bio-diesel made from? Restaurant waste grease? That's available in SF and I believe Berkeley as well, but generally the pumps are in secret back alleys that only a select few are privy to. I love the idea of re-using something that otherwise mucks up the waste disposal system, but as folks are quick to point out, the supply is fairly limited so it'll remain a niche.

Keep in mind biodiesel isn't perfect either. Usually made with methanol, which isn't from the cleanest sources.

From a pure environmental point, straight veg oil is probably best. But it really needs a dedicated motor and fuel system designed for it if it's going to be anything more than hippies converting old Rabbits and ancient Benzes.

Plus I don't know what effects on land use it would have (agricultural land use to fuel output).

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Keep in mind biodiesel isn't perfect either. Usually made with methanol, which isn't from the cleanest sources.

From a pure environmental point, straight veg oil is probably best. But it really needs a dedicated motor and fuel system designed for it if it's going to be anything more than hippies converting old Rabbits and ancient Benzes.

Plus I don't know what effects on land use it would have (agricultural land use to fuel output).

I'm fairly sure making vegetable oil is very land intensive. Afterall, you are throwing away most of the plant mass to extract a tiny portion of the mass in the seed. Now, take the leftover stalks and stuff, turn it into ethanol or burn it for electricity