I Spent the Weekend Driving my FR-S in Snow - Insight

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by lazyluka

Here in New Zealand, we only get summer, or if you are lucky/rich, all season tyres, even though we have similar weather to Europe/US on the bottom half of the south island.

Most people don't even know snow tyres exist

Here is the official government pamphlet:
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/wi...s-pamphlet.pdf

There was an accident in 2011 due to snow tyres and the coroner wanted them banned in NZ:
http://www.scene.co.nz/a/292950a1.page
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5752...res-ridiculous


If you want to tour New Zealand, don't do it in winter.

So basically. Someone crashed with winter tires in late summer. Where those tires are not supposed to be used.
2 other cases used (worn?) winter tires on one axle and summer tires on another.. They managed to crash.
And therefore the tires needs to be banned??
In Norway the drivers would have lost their licence for endangering other people driving with tires like that.

What about just making normal simple rules. Winter tires only in winter, or else get a big ticket/fine.
Driving with totally different tires on different axles is just stupidity.

[Tanuki]

Something else that works well and would be a good alternative on the All Season Turanzas is siping. I don't think siping the michelins would work/ be a good alternative though.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by RaceR

As the first video goes through. As long temperature is below 7 degres (Celcius), 44,5 (Fahrenheit) winter tires are better. The closer you get to freezing point the larger the difference becomes. But if you're winter conditions mostly consist of 44,5 Fahrenheit or warmer, without any driving on snow, than summer tires would do fine.

Winter tires could be better. Not necessarily better.

I'm fairly certain that at temps above freezing, but on dry asphalt, OEM summer Michelins are still better than X-Ice3/Blizzaks etc. All those micro-cuts that enhance ice grip end-up being too soft at those temps and compromise dry grip.

It would take some serious temps below freezing for Ice&Snow-type winter tires to best decent A/S rubber on a dry cold highway. Around 7C I&S winter tires will suck in the dry, and that needs to be taken into account, adjusting following distances, braking effort etc.

[ML]

so winter tire = snow/ice
and summer = dry/rain
temperature is negligible?

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Winter tires could be better. Not necessarily better.

I'm fairly certain that at temps above freezing, but on dry asphalt, OEM summer Michelins are still better than X-Ice3/Blizzaks etc. All those micro-cuts that enhance ice grip end-up being too soft at those temps and compromise dry grip.

Based on my experience the differences are subtle in the dry when temperature is low, but on the + side. But on wet, there is not doubt winter tires are better, especially in cold (above freezing point) conditions. And on snow, there is a ton of grip difference.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Around 7C I&S winter tires will suck in the dry, and that needs to be taken into account, adjusting following distances, braking effort etc.

That is not true. Winters are very mild where I live. Lots of rain. Daytime temperature is this week around 5-10 degrees. With my current car, I come from Michelin Pilot Super Sport to some mediocre/decent winter tires (got them from the dealer, did not choose myself). The grip difference in dry 7 degrees +/- conditions are quite small. And I have one "medium speed sweeper hill" with two turns as reference point for speed that I have used the last 8 years.
Not sure what type of tires you are used to if winter tires suck at 7 degrees. But my current winter tires (typical EU tires) tires work very good. And the typical "nordic winter tires" I normally use does not have any issies with grip either. And they are often softer compound suited better for snow/ICE conditions than the typical winter tires in EU. Never had any issues or complain with the grip level compared to performance or touring summer tires in.
For the record. Speed limit is 50km/h (30mph) at "my reference test place". With winter tires I have to do 85-90km/h to reach the grip levels in damp conditions. About 80 when very wet. In dry I can push to about 95. With performance tires in the summer I wont push much past 100 in dry conditions.
For the record, I would loose my licence at 76. Thrust me, winter tires work sufficient even in dry with some temperature! Running out if grip in dry conditions is the last thing I would worry about.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by RaceR

Based on my experience the differences are subtle in the dry when temperature is low, but on the + side. But on wet, there is not doubt winter tires are better, especially in cold (above freezing point) conditions. And on snow, there is a ton of grip difference.

You experience is void then. There are plenty of tests out there.

Here, have a read
Few pages back from Xi2s - there are some results for A/S tires, and HP A/S, which would be similar to our OEM Michelins.

At 23F Xi2 absolutely SUCK in the dry/wet.
Their PA3, the "performance winter" tires, still lose to HP A/S.

And winter Michelins are good winter tires, on par with leading tires in it's class for I&S. PA3's were somewhat subpar, so I can imagine that something like Wintersports 4D could be a hair better in the wet/dry than these, but not by much.

So, I repeat- winter tires (especially "Ice and Snow" ones, that is Xi2/Xi3, Hakka R, ws60-70, Conti EWC) are not a silver bullet, they come with decreased dry grip, that one needs to take into account.

[ashtray]

Originally Posted by ML

so winter tire = snow/ice
and summer = dry/rain
temperature is negligible?

No!

First so everyone is clear, this car is unlike 99% of new cars, as it comes STOCK with SUMMER tires from the factory. 99% of new cars come with all seasons.

Summer tires - tread NOT designed for snow. Rubber type will HARDEN as temps go under 40 degrees. The colder, the worse traction you'll have - dry or wet. And the tread sucks for trying to find traction on snow.

Winter tires - tread designed for snow. Rubber designed for low temps. In the dry, traction isnt what you're used to in the summer with summer tires - but at temps below 40, winter tires will have better traction wet or dry than summer.

All seasons - jack of all trades, master of none. Designed to be performance, economy, great in water, whatever. Each tire is different. Some are decent in snow, others not great. But at temps under 40, all seasons will have more traction wet or dry than BOTH summer or winter tires. Now in the snow, they won't have as aggressive tread pattern so won't grip as well as winter tires. In the summer, rubber compound wont be as soft as summer tires and won't grip like summer tires can.

Now important to note - stock tires are weird summer tires! Most summer tires are designed for higher traction (in the warm months). The Primacy's have "medium" traction in the summer. Designed with LESS grip for more economy (less friction = more mpg = less cornering grip, but fun to slide.). Replacing stock summer tires with something like Dunlop Star Specs would drop your mpg a bit, wear faster, but give you a lot more grip in the corners during the summer.

The stock Primacy's are weird. You can probably find an all season tire with more grip in the summer, and still be usable in the winter - so it would have better traction in any condition (if you find the right all season tire).

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

You experience is void then.

No point in me making arguments about dry grip performance than.
I have probably defied laws of physics with winter tires in the dry so many times that physics don't count for me anymore. Its what happen when your nick is "RaceR"..

But in wet and snow we probably agree!

[Khyron686]

Our roads have been covered completely with packed snow and ice, and the car is a hoot. I have studded snows though. Still mildly speeding.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by RaceR

But in wet .. we probably agree!

Do we? Per my link, wet @23F, 60-0 braking:
Xi2: 174ft
PA3: 145ft
Some A/S: 140ft
HP A/S: 139ft.

HP A/S would be similar to Michelin OEM. Those are usually almost summer tires, with barely enough grip to qualify as A/S tires.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Do we? Per my link, wet @23F, 60-0 braking:
HP A/S would be similar to Michelin OEM. Those are usually almost summer tires, with barely enough grip to qualify as A/S tires.

Why bother with assumptions on how summer tires work compared to winter in wet conditions based on all seasons tires.

Ill post this video once more if you did not bother to watch it. Wet road testings starts at 2.58

Backs out what I have found out myself many years ago and something that I get verification of every winter season. Winter tires are better in wet conditions. Come visit me if you need a real life demonstration when testing cornering speeds!
Even with the results in Whatcar down below, i still consider real life differences between summer and winter tires to be small in cold conditions based on the roads I drive on (not very smooth tarmac). Could show you that too if you visited when doing cornering tests.

If you want a proper winter tire test. Check out the links below and use google translate. Thrust me, its in another league in terms of winter tire testing compared to all other tests im aware of. They are testing winter tires with and without studs.
http://www.naf.no/Alle-saker/NAF-eks...dekktest-2012/
http://www.naf.no/Alle-saker/NAF-eks...-testdisiplin/

Comparison between summer and winter tires. Test also include primacy HP.
http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/wint...repared/259257
In the dry they find summer tires to have an advantage. But their verdict:

Our tests prove that winter tyres offer big safety benefits over their summer equivalents – not only in snowy and icy conditions, but also in the wet when the temperature dips below 7C.

For those who thinks the stock summer tires on the GT86 are good in snow. Check this out:

[alyon]

I kind of have to get winter tires. Iive in Oregon where we have a very mild winter normally but live up on a hill... where it goes downhill then does a 90 degree turn banked towards a curb at the bottom... they also don't rock, sand, or salt it.

there goes $500.

[Jidonsu]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Some summer tires are better than winter tires in the wet IF you never ever see temperatures below freezing - the test results in the links above show this. The key is that only SOME summer tires are better. You have to look more closely at the specific tires that you're interested in. Once you get snow or ice, it's over in the summer tires. Winter tires will always be better in the snow or ice. It doesn't really cost much more to buy winter tires since your normal set of tires will last roughly twice as long. If you live in an area where you get snow, you might as well just get winter tires. I got performance winter tires to still retain some of the dry handling. The Pirelli Sottozeros I got were rated better than the Primacy HPs in the wet, but only slightly. This is assuming cold weather.

[Tanuki]

I was hoping to get bridgestones from toyota on my new car, but it looks like it has the same michelins as I have now, so I cant just sipe them.

I will be looking for snow tires this week.