FR-S vs. Used Sports Car Market

[kuruma]

Originally Posted by ft86Fan

Yeah, I have the same dilemma. I need to get a car for track and I would love to get the FT-86 because on paper its the perfect track car but that also mean that I'll have to wait a while and also buying a brand new car in its first year of production. Been thinking about getting a used Miata or E36 M3 now and use that for 2 years and then get the 86. What do you guys think?

I think you should wait the few months we have left and find out exactly what the FT will be. Then make your decision.

[ft86Fan]

Originally Posted by kuruma

I think you should wait the few months we have left and find out exactly what the FT will be. Then make your decision.

Yes, definitely. I won't do anything until December. I guess my question is based on the assumption that everything they say about the 86 is true.

[Zaku]

They're something about fixing up classics and older cares. I figure if I can't afford a new car or I decide to wait for something eke I wouldn't mind getting and older car to restore like a Z31 or an old Supra

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by celicajim

I love the idea of the FT86, but I don't think the cost in upgrading from my 2zz-ge Celica to the FT86 is going to be worth it. Yes it will be newer and handle a bit better but its not really going to be a lot faster.
Unless its cheaper and faster than I think it will be, I'll keep my Celica for daily duties and get a used 200sx Silvia as a track car.

I totally agree with your statement about the upgrade difference.

[tree fingers]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

The numbers for the Elise are also wrong, at least for US cars.

It comes down to what you want. You can get a better pure sports car for FT86 money, or a better GT car, etc but it's going to be used so you'll have maint expenses earlier, they can be harder to finance, etc.

According to NADA, those numbers are correct for a 2005 Lotus Elise with 60,xxx miles. This includes the range between low retail and average retail; however, I purposefully excluded high retail, because it's atypical and unreasonable.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...53k-mi-104307/

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...-cheap-103890/

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...c-area-103218/

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...ngeles-103053/

All under 60,xxx and 29,xxx$

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

This thread is a good one, as for over a year I've been comparing the FT-86 in my head against used sports cars that are in the same price range. I abhor how heavy all cars are getting as the years go by so the FT-86 has me excited. But if they fail to make this car as light as they've promised then I won't have any interest in it at all (kind of like the Hyundai Genesis).

I currently own an S2000 and while it's a great car I need a fixed roof coupe. I'm not a huge fan of convertibles and they're a huge pain at track events since most clubs and tracks don't allow them to compete without aftermarket rollbars.

I plan on replacing my S2000 with the FT-86 (but only if it's a performance improvement) or Porsche 911 (996) or Porsche Cayman S. Being concerned about a used sports car's history is a valid concern, especially with the Japanese ones previously mentioned in this thread. However as you look at used cars that originally cost $60k + the odds that the previous owner abused the vehicle go down greatly. People that can afford cars that expensive generally take good care of them and are mature enough not to abuse them.

It would be nice to buy a new Toyota sports car instead of a used Porsche, as the maintenance of the Porsche will no doubt be higher. But if Toyota can't deliver where else can I turn for a 3000lb (or less) RWD coupe that is less than 10 years old?

The 996 chassis is barely under that mark. Hahah.. Although, don't listen to me, the 911 is one of my favorite cars, so I'll talk it up whenever I can.

On the topic of managing or avoiding previous owners abuse:

Is it possible to look for indications of abuse through standard checks?

compression test
leakdown test
pulling turbochargers for abnormal amounts of shaft play
etc

What do you guys think?

[ft86Fan]

I used to have an Elise and traded it in for my current Exige S. Yes, the prices for used Lotus actually went up a bit. I recall last year there were a few 2005 Elise selling below $23K with low miles. Lotus is actually a good used car to buy. People either track it or keep it as a garage queen with very low miles and take extremely good care of it. The car takes a huge depreciation hit the first few years but I think the price is now stable. It might actually go up a bit because of the fact that they don't make Elise/Exige any more and the new direction that Lotus is going with upscale cars to compete with Ferrari and Lambo.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by tree fingers

On the topic of managing or avoiding previous owners abuse:

Is it possible to look for indications of abuse through standard checks?

compression test
leakdown test
pulling turbochargers for abnormal amounts of shaft play
etc

What do you guys think?

Also run your hand over the running engine to feel for leaks, sniff for smells, compare oil level/color before and after a test drive, look at the ground for leaks before and after the drive. Listen for odd rattles when you floor it. These are quick indicators before doing those more involved tests you listed.

Test drive other cars of the same make/model/year in near perfect condition (usually priced higher with lower mileage). Familiarize yourself with where power comes and drops in the entire rev range and feel of the transmission and suspension. This gives you a standard to test against.

Check for consistent spacing between body panels and compare spacing on left vs. right body panels. Look along edges/crevices for signs of paint work, non-factory paint defects (dust, craters), or inconsistent texture or lack of factory orange peel texture on panels.

Put the car on a lift and check suspension for welds/breaks/recently replaced parts. Have a shop do a full laser alignment inspection and confirm everything can be aligned back to factory spec. Make sure they check more than camber, caster, toe; measure steering axis inclination (not directly adjustable) and calculate included angle (not directly measureable) among other things. If the secondary, more involved measurements are off, then most likely something has been bent.

[n2oinferno]

In the end you just have to compare vehicles and get what you want. You'll almost always get a better value from a used vehicle because you aren't taking the new car depreciation hit, so it's almost an unfair comparison. By the time the Toyota/Scion/Subaru is out you'll probably be able to pick up a base 370z or 2011 Mustang GT for mid-low 20s, since I've seen them as low as 25-26k already. The first gen Genesis Coupe will probably drop its value some when the new model hits too. And if you don't care about weight, you can already get a first gen CTS-V for under 20k. Add a few grand for an aftermarket warranty if you're afraid of something breaking, and you're set till 100k.

I've owned two brand new cars though, and there is a really good feeling associated with having a brand new vehicle.

[Neutral_Eyes]

Originally Posted by ft86Fan

Yeah, I have the same dilemma. I need to get a car for track and I would love to get the FT-86 because on paper its the perfect track car but that also mean that I'll have to wait a while and also buying a brand new car in its first year of production. Been thinking about getting a used Miata or E36 M3 now and use that for 2 years and then get the 86. What do you guys think?

I think.. you own an Exige and a BMW, why bother at all?

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Do lightweight, quick, great handling, good economy the way Toyota should have back then.

Can anyone imagine what the MR-S would have been if it were a coupe from the factory, and shared the more aggressive Celica styling cues (instead of the squared baby Boxster), with the 180 hp 6 speed combo? Would've been damn epic...

That right there is truth. Lord knows they could have offered that combo as a GT trim or whatever.

Originally Posted by Praetendere

Personally I really like what this car could be, but I could probably get an E30 BMW and swap in a 1UZ and be happy.

UZ > JZ.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

UZ > JZ.

I would agree with you guys on that as well. Give me that GS400 engine with 300hp and 310 tq and I would be one happy person.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I would agree with you guys on that as well. Give me that GS400 engine with 300hp and 310 tq and I would be one happy person.

True... but isn't UZ only comes in AT tranny (iirc)?

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

True... but isn't UZ only comes in AT tranny (iirc)?

:| What are you suggesting?

Edit: Why do I always get put on the second page?

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by tree fingers

According to NADA, those numbers are correct for a 2005 Lotus Elise with 60,xxx miles. This includes the range between low retail and average retail; however, I purposefully excluded high retail, because it's atypical and unreasonable.

The 996 chassis is barely under that mark. Hahah.. Although, don't listen to me, the 911 is one of my favorite cars, so I'll talk it up whenever I can.

On the topic of managing or avoiding previous owners abuse:

Is it possible to look for indications of abuse through standard checks?

compression test
leakdown test
pulling turbochargers for abnormal amounts of shaft play
etc

What do you guys think?

Sorry I meant HP/TQ numbers.

996s are great deals if you pick wisely (or if you keep 12k around in case you need to replace the motor).

Of course you can look for wear/abuse, that should be done with all used cars.