supercharger or turbo?

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

Great thread. I don't think I can afford to do SC or TC anytime soon, but I love that both already have multiple options released or soon to be released. Options are great. I think looking at options right now (things could easily change as aftermarket evolves) I would go with a SC due to it being much simpler design, should make 270-300 reliable crank hp, and I love that the Vortech looks basically OEM like it came from the factory. Totally sleeper and that's great for me. I don't like overly outrageous mods on my car.

i would say that innovates kit looks very oem as well. and should give you the power you want.

[Turbowned]

I don't think the OP is ever coming back...

Oh well! For me it's too early to decide. When I can compare final dyno charts of all turbo and s/c's and compare the costs, that's when I'll make a decision. Right now I'm leaning toward the Vortech s/c for reasons that gmookher covered, but we'll see! I happen to have a new Garrett GTX2863R sitting around, and it would make nice, robust power in a BRZ. I have owned and driven a few turbo and s/c cars and of the two I prefer the roots s/c, but have not driven a car with newer turbo tech or a centri or twin screw s/c.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Very well said. This is one of your better posts and thanks for the detailed discussion. While I am still sold on AVO, you make GREAT points.

Couldn't agree more.

[DRACHENV6]

Dont forget hks and crawford

[White Shadow]

Do you want your engine to whistle or to whine?

Personally, I hate whiners. Gotta go with the happy turbo instead. It whistles while it works!

[drifter]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

Fair enough.


On topic, I am going Turbo. The simplicity of AVO's kit is exactly what I want in my car. I understand and respect other people have other needs. Their reputation for reliability and their rigorous testing on actual driving conditions is amazing.

It also helps how it fits into the budget.

Happy modding everyone!

A couple questions for you (or anyone else) since I can't and wont post this in Vortechs thread;;

1. If you lived in CA, would your choice still be AVO over Vortech?
2. You say the AVO has a reputation for reliablity. Does that mean you feel this will in fact be MORE reliable the the Vortech SC?
3. Do you have any concerns about furture oil leaks with AVO?
4. Vortech claims the turbo with have lag and not be smooth as the SC, do they have a point?
5. Gas milage between the two?

thanks...

Thanks Sportsguy, I value yours and others input..

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by drifter

A couple questions for you (or anyone else) since I can't and wont post this in Vortechs thread;;

1. If you lived in CA, would your choice still be AVO over Vortech?
2. You say the AVO has a reputation for reliablity. Does that mean you feel this will in fact be MORE reliable the the Vortech SC?
3. Do you have any concerns about furture oil leaks with AVO?
4. Vortech claims the turbo with have lag and not be smooth as the SC, do they have a point?
5. Gas milage between the two?

thanks...

Thanks Sportsguy, I value yours and others input..

1) This is a complex question and I'll try to answer. Vortech has the advantage of keeping both Cats if you want, AVO deletes one Cat. Now, that does not mean Vortech will pass emissions for sure. AVO is more "stealth" to the eye than the Vortech. It all depends on what you plan to do when you are going to go for smog test. Are you willing to remove the major components of the system and take it to test? If so, I believe the Vortech will be easier as you can keep the stock Cats, reflash your computer to stock and replace the stock intake manifold and belt.

2) I think both companies have a great reputation for reliability. I personally feel more comfortable with the simplicity of the AVO kit. SC in general are know to be very reliable so I wouldn't say either of the companies has an advantage in this. The design of the AVO oil pump is extremely brilliant and installed correctly should give no issues at all.

3) There will always be potential for oil leaks. I am not concerned by it. The oil lines reservoir and oil pump are close to the turbo and as long as it is installed correctly, I believe only a freak accident or wear after years of use is the only potential for oil leaks.

4) This is a very bold and general statement. There is a myth that every turbo will be laggy. While it is true that a big turbo will be difficult to spool by our small engine thus producing lag, this is not expected from the AVO kit. If you look at their Dyno plot, torque picks up rather quickly. There might be a little bit of lag (negligible) at certain RPM's but nothing to be concerned about. AVO's turbo has been sized right for our engine and that is the most important thing to prevent turbo lag.

5) I expect similar gas mileage from both, as long as you cruise and are not stepping on it all the time, there won't be much loos of MPG. I believe AVO's testing so far has the car right up there at over 25 mpg.

Hope to have cleared up some things.

[gmookher]

So In now way is the turbo kit bad, but it IS driven by hot exhuast gas. It does employ a mechanical pump. and soft tubing.

I went with SC myself for a variety of reasons..and not only live where its hot, but have a need for it to do minimum of 20 minute sessions at redline under full load, repeatedly; I know how hot my turbo cars tend to get out on the tarmac and how heat soak affects performance, and how the turbo raising my motor oil temps is not something I want on this tiny motor.

Well, I finally put my money where my mouth is.... I dropped off my car with Vortech for installation and testing in Oxnard CA. As some of you know, I have a unique opportunity to do some testing for them. Its strapped to their dyno now. Yeah, I'm pretty excited about it. First they dyno, then I datalog track time. then they test more and then they determine when to market what final design. I get to have a riot at the track and get to employ a 'just try and break it' kinda approach.

The facility tour was mind blowing. The entire solution gets made in house in usa, their manufacturing is not just limited to automotive, seems they supply everything from naval to aircraft applications, busses and trucks to industrial applications and heavy machinery. This is a no joke firm. Forced induction gurus. I met their impeller design guru. Thats all the man does. Mind boggling. The milling and machining they have is pretty serious robotics. sick, really.

I wasnt allowed to take pictures but saw our impellers being machined, not stamped. Same with the backplates and housing, saw it all from raw to finished stages. Billet this and that everywhere-for our kit.

1. I live in AZ, and Robert at Evolution Motorsports who takes care of my porsche is a Vortech shop in PHX, they have dealer/installers who have been with them for years in every state. check yours.this system keep the stock cat which is actually a pretty high quality cat to start with. If carb or smog testing is a concern, I think a setup that keeps the OE cat is a no brainer. Being able to present a unmodified catalytic and a system that retains both cats is nice. The Vortech solution is simpler than a turbo in this regard, fewer parts, fewer failure points and downstream dependancies.

2. Vortech SC's iso 9001 is unparalleled industrywide in the FI market. The fact that they makle the tubing and cnc everything in house rather than slapping a off the shelf turbo in and making it work. My understanding is they made a whole new product just for this application. The tubing is aluminum, not soft rubber or silicone. Stuff like a few feet silicone piping isnt what everyone wants under their hoods; they can offer a custom made aluminum setup cause at the end of the day they are a machine shop. They make it, not made in mexico Garret, not some kid assembling this in some 3rd world country. the control along the entire way of the production process, the TQM approach, well, if you know manufacturing, you know how important stuff like stress analysis is. These guy have a lab area dedicated to trying to real world test stuff their FEA computers cough out. The difference is, with a turbo, you have a vane architecture and flow dynamics as made by the turbo maker, in our case, because of tight tolerances and small batch control, and since they go the extra milke to give us a CNC billet impeller, they can fine tune, test, in small batches, and finally be able to custom design the best impeller flow characteristics, since they MAKE the impeller specifically for our car's application. I was told this allows them to further tune the driving experience, from something as wild, basic, critical, and something only a shop like them can control -inhouse- as critical to any air delivery system something the turbo guys dont have any control over is impeller design. Its not a make it work approach, its control along the entire way of system development, right along side testing is re-engineering and performance optimization and re-development. Me, with Vortech, have little to no concerns to reliability, what so ever.

3. No potential for oil leaks what so ever,No oil lines, or aftermarket pump to fail in this system, has its own oiling system. Oil changes take 5 mins and can be done independent of motor oil to ensure high speed bearing life.

4. Vortech claims the SC will be all about instant power, and linear controllable predictable power on demand anywhere in the curve. Simple swaps of a pulley can be made to affect the boost curve, and desired target psi, and for the customer seeking more than the stock setup, its easy to implement a more robust setup from the stg1 departure point, simple as a bigger or smaller pulley by a few mm's. Its not like you can do that with a turbo.

5. Gas milage between the two I expect to be comparable

hope that helps...

[JoeBoxer]

Congrats Gem, looking forward to your impressions of the kit. The Stage 1 Innovate kit is still in the lead for me, at least until i see my wholesale pricing on the Vortech.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by gmookher

So In now way is the turbo kit bad, but it IS driven by hot exhuast gas. It is driven by a generic, off the shelf turbo. It does employ a 3rd party electric pump. and soft tubing.

3. No potential for oil leaks what so ever,No oil lines, or electric aftermarket pump to fail in this system, has its own oiling system. Oil changes take 5 mins and can be done independent of motor oil to ensure high speed bearing life.

You make good points gmookher, but to make it even better please get your facts straight. AVO DOES NOT use an electric oil pump, its mechanical.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by gmookher

So In now way is the turbo kit bad, but it IS driven by hot exhuast gas. It is driven by a generic, off the shelf turbo. It does employ a 3rd party mechanical pump. and soft tubing.

To expand on this post, as far as I understood (and I've been following AVO's thread since day one) the turbine used for our cars is custom built and designed specifically for our cars, not off the shelf or taken out of another car. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and you can point me to where it is said it IS third party off the shelf). That it is driven by exhaust gases..... pick your poison, either use that wasted energy to move the turbine, or waste energy turning the SC, both approaches not ideal, but both have pros and cons.

And again on the mechanical oil pump, AFAIK they pump was designed and tested by AVO themselves, and it is built specifically for our cars. (Feel free to correct me and show me the prove it is third party, AVO showed testing on their own shop while it was being designed by them)


Look, Vortech/Perrin's SC looks amazing, and seems like a great solutions for our cars, I have NOTHING bad to say about them. But just because you like it doesn't mean you have to post erroneous information about the other kits that make them look real bad.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

You make good points gmookher, but to make it even better please get your facts straight. AVO DOES NOT use an electric oil pump, its mechanical.

My apologies, unintended !!!!

thanks for the correction

Not intending to make anyone look bad...

AVO's Turbo offering is a serious contender, indeed and youre right, AVO has a custom turbo for our application as well and appears they make the add on pump too.
And it has nothing to do with like or not like, tried to answer same 5 questions you did!

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by gmookher

My apologies, unintended !!!!

thanks for the correction

Not intending to make anyone look bad...

AVO's Turbo offering is a serious contender, indeed and youre right, AVO has a custom turbo for our application as well and appears they make the add on pump too.
And it has nothing to do with like or not like, tried to answer same 5 questions you did!

Not a problem. i respect your opinion and as previously posted, you make GREAT points for the Vortech.

I just like the information to be accurate because I know a lot of people just read this type of threads and take whatever is here as facts and unintended or not, when you say things like 3rd party and off the shelf it makes AVO look bad.

Nonetheless, IMHO both offerings are rock solid and I can see why anyone would go with Vortech and obviously know firsthand why would anyone go with AVO. :happy0180:

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

obviously know firsthand why would anyone go with AVO. :happy0180:

Right, both are class A offerings from firms who been around for a while and engineer/develop/manufacture what they sell.

I can WAIT for my 1st hand impression. Insert Evil Laugh here. MuWahaHaHaa!