supercharger or turbo?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

I'm going with a supercharger for sure. but i might use the flow bench i have at work and design a custom plenum with a big Laminova Core intercooler (overkill for a purpose) to run a Eaton R1320 TVS under plenum kind of like the Tuner challenge winners car but have the plenum made out of plastic if possible (weight savings), instead of the sprintex kit which i am considering.

1320 is really big! I think you'd want about 9000rpm engine to use it, spinning the charger to about 15k for 1.2 bar boost. Actually that would cause you to exceed the max pressure at lower rpms...If you only use 13.5krpm at the charger, then your low end efficiency will suck balls.

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

1320 is really big! I think you'd want about 9000rpm engine to use it, spinning the charger to about 15k for 1.2 bar boost. Actually that would cause you to exceed the max pressure at lower rpms...If you only use 13.5krpm at the charger, then your low end efficiency will suck balls.

big charger but keeping the pressure ratio at about 1.7bar (about 10-12 psi of boost) from 2000-7500 should net me no less than 70%. maybe 68 if our heads do not flow what im estimating (about 270CFM). i've seen 1320s used in 1.8L 2ZZ lotus elise motors without problems revving to about 8k and 1.1bar of boost. slightly different motor but head flow should be roughly the same.

If i could find an R1050 i would build the kit for that but seeing as how i can get my hands on 1320 that seems to be the choice right now.

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by drifter

\

I"ve heard this a few times now. I"ve never had a turbo. What exactly do you have to do to properly maintain a turbo, or does it depend on which one you get?

If someone already started a thread on this question, please send me link,

thanks..

turbo's require a bit of a warm up and cool down (Comp makes fully water-cooled turbos that negate this completely) , good oil (especially if oil cooled and lubricated), changing oil more often (as a precaution) keep the lines in good shape and you should be fine.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

big charger but keeping the pressure ratio at about 1.7bar (about 10-12 psi of boost) from 2000-7500 should net me no less than 70%. maybe 68 if our heads do not flow what im estimating (about 270CFM). i've seen 1320s used in 1.8L 2ZZ lotus elise motors without problems revving to about 8k and 1.1bar of boost. slightly different motor but head flow should be roughly the same.

If i could find an R1050 i would build the kit for that but seeing as how i can get my hands on 1320 that seems to be the choice right now.

Right, but the problem is that Roots blowers really need to be spinning quite fast to get good efficiency. You'll still have power because the pumping power is not very consequential but it's far from an ideal scenario. The bigger charger is bigger, heavier, less efficient, and loses more volumetric efficiency given the same rate of displacement * speed. The R1320 pumps about 500hp worth of air when fully utilized (15k rpm and 1.32L, vs. effective 1L and 7000rpm for 200hp). On a 7500rpm redline engine, you'd want about 3 liter displacement to use the R1320 as that would land you in the 1.7-1.8 bar absolute pressure zone.

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Right, but the problem is that Roots blowers really need to be spinning quite fast to get good efficiency. You'll still have power because the pumping power is not very consequential but it's far from an ideal scenario. The bigger charger is bigger, heavier, less efficient, and loses more volumetric efficiency given the same rate of displacement * speed. The R1320 pumps about 500hp worth of air when fully utilized (15k rpm and 1.32L, vs. effective 1L and 7000rpm for 200hp)

everything you say is true but from the maps overall the 1320 has the biggest thermal efficiency island of them all. TVS is a lot different from the older style roots, does not require super high speeds to produce efficiency and mesh speeds are almost parallel with input speeds meaning far better volumetric efficiency across the board. i wouldn't say 500hp. but planning for 400crank in this car(330whp) at .8Bar or 11psi our motor would be using about ~480-520CFM (1000-1100M^3/hr) at torque peak (~6500) (rough dependent on our head flow) at that point in the pressure range/Ratio (about 1.71bar) i'm at ~72%. I'm not planning on maxing out the charger but using its most efficient zones without compromising low end efficiency. i've done a ton of research. and i've owned a few cars, turbo S2k, single turbo RX7, 10-71 blown 91 454ss pickup, 2006 cobalt SS/SC with R1320 conversion (320whp). i know what the charger can do from tuning that car.

[shishand]

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

with proper care both will be very reliable.

Sorry i mean't on the car, which is easier on the engine? I know both void the warranty so im wondering which one is least likely to mess up or put too much pressure on the engine

[serialk11r]

That's true, but the problem I see is that if you look at the R1320 map, if you're spinning it to 11000rpm, you'll be below 60% efficiency by 5000rpm at the blower (or ~3200rpm engine) and volumetric efficiency will be down to about 85%. Seems like a kinda crappy powerband, might as well just use a centrifugal supercharger if you're going to be losing that much boost at lower rpms. It's lighter, cheaper, more efficient, and smaller.

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

That's true, but the problem I see is that if you look at the R1320 map, if you're spinning it to 11000rpm, you'll be below 60% efficiency by 5000rpm at the blower (or ~3200rpm engine) and volumetric efficiency will be down to about 85%. Seems like a kinda crappy powerband, might as well just use a centrifugal supercharger if you're going to be losing that much boost at lower rpms. It's lighter, cheaper, more efficient, and smaller.

i guess i kinda missed the rpm data on the old map i have that does not show it. for the airflow i need i'll be at 14k rpms at 7.5K engine speed. therefore at the 3200 rpm you speak of i would be at roughly 6000rpm SC speed. if im right then i'll be right at the edge of the 70% island.

Of course this is a bigger charger low low rpm (idle-3000) is going to suffer but not so much that driveability is the shits. if i could get my hands on a R1050 or wait a year and see if the next generation R1100 comes into production then i would prefer to use this. the manifold i design will have provisions for the smaller (and in the case of R1100) way more efficient. SC.

and i disagree that the centrifugals are lighter after you add piping and an intercooler the weight difference is negligible.

[gmookher]

I'm gonna be cautious, as many of you seem to think I am biased. I am, but for good reasons sitting here as a consumer, just like you.

I dont work for Jeff, or Vortech. I have spoken on the Phone with Paul from AVO once.

I've never met the guys who I am emailing or talking to sharing test results. They wouldnt know me if we sat in the same room next to eachother.

Like you, I own a car, that I want more power from, except I want it to feel like NA motor, I dont want to run outta steam as I approach redline.

So having owned many turbo cars in my life as a auto enthusiast since I hit puberty three decades ago...and with two turbo cars in the garage making 350hp plus, I'm not looking at just the HP figure, but track ability, drivability and reliability are key concerns for where I drive and the way I use my BRZ.

I pay for my mods like you, sometimes tester types get a discount, but nothings really free. My parts come with requirements and stuff I need to do-work-test, spend my own money at the end of the day. Yeah, I save money but it IS a bit of a headache at times.

Whether its a daily driver and your only car or something you are risking life and limb in regularly for shits and giggles, I cant wait for a part to ship from overseas. Sorry, fail.

I cant wait for the time zone to be right for tech support. fail. I've already posted about AVO's limited dealer network stateside vs Vortechs presence in each and every state.

AVO has ONE contactable employee stateside-last I checked, please correct me if I am wrong, having watched the 'Visconti show', I dont want that as my customer service model, sorry. I like Paul Hansen, dont get me wrong. He sounds like a swell guy. But thats the stateside AVO office, as I understand it. Didnt look like a garage or a shop, more a PO BOX.

thus,

Vortech>AVO>innovate>One offs
USA metallurgy=Japan>ROW/Third World
USA Warranty>ROW/Third world
thus yes,
Vortech Cost>AVO>Innovate>one offs

Vortech has been around for 21 years. I have no data on the others despite searching

Does anyone else 'in the FI running' offer 1year, or 3 year 36K mile warranties from AVO, Innovate or ROW products? Tell me if so.

Vortech boasts over $11M in yearly annualized sales, 50+ employees, and are subject to US rules and regulations.

How big, and here to stay are firms other than AVO is a concern? I have cars in the garge with stuff under the hood whose vendors have gone bye bye. that sucks.

It looks pretty much avo vs vortech to me. I dont do one man shows, or care for a Don;s turbo as a one off in my engine bay. YMMV.

I dont know Innovate from Don from the guys up the street who seem to love this car and have talked about turbos with me too, and are making and selling headers already today. But they make a nice header but dont own a dyno. I dont see alot of revision or evolution there. pass.

really I see it as dealing with AVO abroad or Vortech here as the two options for folks wanting to stay with one of teh bigger shops. ME-I would steer clear of smaller shops till their stuffs been proven for some time in larger batches.

Dont get me wrong, Innovate has my attention too. Just need them, and their offering to mature some.At the end of the day they are another tuner shop, not a manufacturer, and didnt appear to be a ecutek Master Tuner outfit. I'd be surprised if they could stand behind a warranty being as small as they are. My prelim findings: the company that owns/funds them, however, CB Capital, is strong, so in my book, Innovate holds promise for those of you looking to adopt down the road. Really, I like Innovate, just dont know them at all.

AVO seems to have a USA test vehicle. I dont hear of others testing, or any beta testers here in USA or elsewhere from 'the other vendoprs in the running'.

I approached AVO as a prospective tester willing to pay to test, and seems they are satisfied with their pre release tests and dont want any paying track testers before they release- heck they are already taking orders and deposits. Jeff refused to take my money. So did Vortech, till it passes 1 to 2 months of real world, multi vehicle, multi user, track and real world testing.

.. I havent heard any inkling of anyone elses FI setup being track tested before release. hard for me as someone who drives hard and tracks their car to adopt something this early if it hasnt been tested. On the track. In the heat, period. I am in Phoenix, know wha ah mean?

One thing you can count on from Perrin, and Vortech, is both US firms have too much liability to be putting anything out without obscene levels of testing, and yes, with full disclosure, I am queued up as a hopeful beta tester fo the vortech kit.

[NJA]

Originally Posted by FreshFRS

everything you say is true but from the maps overall the 1320 has the biggest thermal efficiency island of them all. TVS is a lot different from the older style roots, does not require super high speeds to produce efficiency and mesh speeds are almost parallel with input speeds meaning far better volumetric efficiency across the board. i wouldn't say 500hp. but planning for 400crank in this car(330whp) at .8Bar or 11psi our motor would be using about ~480-520CFM (1000-1100M^3/hr) at torque peak (~6500) (rough dependent on our head flow) at that point in the pressure range/Ratio (about 1.71bar) i'm at ~72%. I'm not planning on maxing out the charger but using its most efficient zones without compromising low end efficiency. i've done a ton of research. and i've owned a few cars, turbo S2k, single turbo RX7, 10-71 blown 91 454ss pickup, 2006 cobalt SS/SC with R1320 conversion (320whp). i know what the charger can do from tuning that car.

Hey a fellow Delta owner! I can definitely attest to the TVS doing work in a smaller displacement motor. Many supercharged Cobalt/Ion guys upgrade to this blower and it's an easy 300whp on pump gas. If head flow is right, I could see a high reving motor on E85 making great numbers.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by gmookher

I'm gonna be cautious, as many of you seem to think I am biased. I am, but for good reasons sitting here as a consumer, just like you.

I dont work for Jeff, or Vortech. I have spoken on the Phone with Paul from AVO once.............

Very well said. This is one of your better posts and thanks for the detailed discussion. While I am still sold on AVO, you make GREAT points.

[FreshFRS]

Originally Posted by NinjaAutosports

Hey a fellow Delta owner! I can definitely attest to the TVS doing work in a smaller displacement motor. Many supercharged Cobalt/Ion guys upgrade to this blower and it's an easy 300whp on pump gas. If head flow is right, I could see a high reving motor on E85 making great numbers.

yes, i think 300whp is about 80% of what this car could produce with pump gas. im shooting for 330-360whp. E85 and 16-18psi could see 400 or so.

[Braces]

Originally Posted by gmookher

I'm gonna be cautious, as many of you seem to think I am biased. I am, but for good reasons sitting here as a consumer, just like you.

I dont work for Jeff, or Vortech. I have spoken on the Phone with Paul from AVO once.

I've never met the guys who I am emailing or talking to sharing test results. They wouldnt know me if we sat in the same room next to eachother.

Like you, I own a car, that I want more power from, except I want it to feel like NA motor, I dont want to run outta steam as I approach redline.

So having owned many turbo cars in my life as a auto enthusiast since I hit puberty three decades ago...and with two turbo cars in the garage making 350hp plus, I'm not looking at just the HP figure, but track ability, drivability and reliability are key concerns for where I drive and the way I use my BRZ.

I pay for my mods like you, sometimes tester types get a discount, but nothings really free. My parts come with requirements and stuff I need to do-work-test, spend my own money at the end of the day. Yeah, I save money but it IS a bit of a headache at times.

Whether its a daily driver and your only car or something you are risking life and limb in regularly for shits and giggles, I cant wait for a part to ship from overseas. Sorry, fail.

I cant wait for the time zone to be right for tech support. fail. I've already posted about AVO's limited dealer network stateside vs Vortechs presence in each and every state.

AVO has ONE contactable employee stateside-last I checked, please correct me if I am wrong, having watched the 'Visconti show', I dont want that as my customer service model, sorry. I like Paul Hansen, dont get me wrong. He sounds like a swell guy. But thats the stateside AVO office, as I understand it. Didnt look like a garage or a shop, more a PO BOX.

thus,

Vortech>AVO>innovate>One offs
USA metallurgy=Japan>ROW/Third World
USA Warranty>ROW/Third world
thus yes,
Vortech Cost>AVO>Innovate>one offs

Vortech has been around for 21 years. I have no data on the others despite searching

Does anyone else 'in the FI running' offer 1year, or 3 year 36K mile warranties from AVO, Innovate or ROW products? Tell me if so.

Vortech boasts over $11M in yearly annualized sales, 50+ employees, and are subject to US rules and regulations.

How big, and here to stay are firms other than AVO is a concern? I have cars in the garge with stuff under the hood whose vendors have gone bye bye. that sucks.

It looks pretty much avo vs vortech to me. I dont do one man shows, or care for a Don;s turbo as a one off in my engine bay. YMMV.

I dont know Innovate from Don from the guys up the street who seem to love this car and have talked about turbos with me too, and are making and selling headers already today. But they make a nice header but dont own a dyno. I dont see alot of revision or evolution there. pass.

really I see it as dealing with AVO abroad or Vortech here as the two options for folks wanting to stay with one of teh bigger shops. ME-I would steer clear of smaller shops till their stuffs been proven for some time in larger batches.

Dont get me wrong, Innovate has my attention too. Just need them, and their offering to mature some.At the end of the day they are another tuner shop, not a manufacturer, and didnt appear to be a ecutek Master Tuner outfit. I'd be surprised if they could stand behind a warranty being as small as they are. My prelim findings: the company that owns/funds them, however, CB Capital, is strong, so in my book, Innovate holds promise for those of you looking to adopt down the road. Really, I like Innovate, just dont know them at all.

AVO seems to have a USA test vehicle. I dont hear of others testing, or any beta testers here in USA or elsewhere from 'the other vendoprs in the running'.

I approached AVO as a prospective tester willing to pay to test, and seems they are satisfied with their pre release tests and dont want any paying track testers before they release- heck they are already taking orders and deposits. Jeff refused to take my money. So did Vortech, till it passes 1 to 2 months of real world, multi vehicle, multi user, track and real world testing.

.. I havent heard any inkling of anyone elses FI setup being track tested before release. hard for me as someone who drives hard and tracks their car to adopt something this early if it hasnt been tested. On the track. In the heat, period. I am in Phoenix, know wha ah mean?

One thing you can count on from Perrin, and Vortech, is both US firms have too much liability to be putting anything out without obscene levels of testing, and yes, with full disclosure, I am queued up as a hopeful beta tester fo the vortech kit.

Very informative from someone who seems to have a better handle on this FI than I do. A couple of questions from someone who also lives in Phx.

1. I know the complete info is not out ... but how do you think the vortech will compare to the TRD SC?

2. Is there a local shop in Phx that will be handling the Vortech installs.


Thanks.

[RedLeader]

Originally Posted by Braces

Very informative from someone who seems to have a better handle on this FI than I do. A couple of questions from someone who also lives in Phx.

1. I know the complete info is not out ... but how do you think the vortech will compare to the TRD SC?

2. Is there a local shop in Phx that will be handling the Vortech installs.


Thanks.

I can answer number 2 with relative certainty: GoodSpeed Performance Lab. Give those guys a call. I'm not guaranteeing that they'll have loads of experience (its a brand new kit, only the original manufacturers and testers have notable experience with this SC), but they've got years of experience supercharging BMWs (seems like a nearly daily occurance to them) and working on everything Subaru.

And no, I'm not affiliated with them, but I've been a very satisfied customer for awhile and have never had any issues with them, other than that they are in Scottsdale and I am in Tucson.

As to your first question: Do we even know what the TRD SC is going to be, other than "announced-ish"? I think it's hard to compare the two when we know next to nothing about the TRD kit.