First Track day what to prepare for.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

As skill level goes up, so to should preparation. I'm not denying that at all. To me, some things are better learned first hand, then studied later for improvement. I feel initial track skills are that way. Everyone going out on track already knows how to operate a vehicle. For some, reading information before hand will be helpful, for other, not so much.

Honestly I could stop here because you just made my point. Reading doesn't help all equally but it does help all (of those that can read).

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

To say a blanket statement one way or the other is blatantly wrong. Of that I am sure. Let's take driving a stick shift for instance - you can analyze and read how how one works all you wan - you're not going to be able to do it until you actually get out there and drive. Even knowing everything about how a transmission and clutch works, you still won't be able to drive a stick shift until you go and try it. Conversely, think of how many people out there can drive a stick shift yet couldn't tell you the first thing about how one works or how a clutch operates.

Take rev-matching as well. You can read about it all you want. Heel-toe this, heel-toe that. I've got tons of students that understand the concept but say (I can get my heel over to the gas). I tell them to press the accelerator with whatever they can. It doesn't have to be their heel. They were over-analyzing it thinking it had to be a certain way.

To say that a human being that knows how to read will retain information from reading is a blatant statement, yes, however it doesn’t feel wrong to say. It feels logical.

Also, I don’t think your comparisons are applicable to the matter at hand.

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying that is perfectly open for debate. If a student doesn't learn by reading, but by doing instead. No amount of reading is going to help them and it's going to be a complete waste of time for them.

I'm not opposed to continuing this debate so long as we keep it cordial which doesn't appear to be a problem.

I will concede that a student doesn't need to read that book or any book before going out on track for the first time but to say it won't have any good would be false. The educational sciences can back me up. Kinaesthetic learners still retain information they read. There is also proof that kinaesthetic learners learn faster if they have pre-existing knowledge of that which they are about to learn kinesthetically. This is why I say reading is beneficial, period. It is also fair to say it will benefit some more than others but will benefit all to some degree and that it’s not a waste of time. Also, visual learners can benefit from reading as often time instructional material uses pictures to illustrate points which really helps visual learners and kinaesthetic learners. Ross Bentley's book has lots of visual illustrations. Kinaesthetic learners are often times strong visual learners as well.

Riding a bull:
I may not learn best by reading but if was planning on learning how to ride a bull you can bet I'm going to want to know some things first. That's really the point I'm trying to make. I'm using reading simply for illustrative purpose but the pre-event studying could be anything. Still though, unless a person is illiterate, the brain retains knowledge from reading.

In Summary, if you scrolled through all that and only read this:

Would you agree that some type of informational download before the event is beneficial for preparing the mind for what it's about to learn so that it may know what to expect, to anticipate and to learn; whether or not that information download is from a book, a conversation with an instructor, watching in-car video, simulator, etc etc?

And

Can you accept that kinaesthetic learners also retain information that they read assuming they can read?

[gmookher]

nothing beats having your butt in that seat...

[speed3]

What I do when I do racedays on the bike (most of it is still the same, haven't done one in a car yet)

disclaimer: I am a little bit boy scoutish and OTT with my prep

A day or 2 before -
check vehicle
oil level (new oil and filter)
coolant level (flush and top up)
brake fluid (bleed and top up)
brake pads & rotors (inspect and replace as necessary)
overall visual inspection for leaks, damage, loose parts etc
remove ancillary crap - cds, trinkets, spare shoes etc (road gear on bike)
give it a clean so you can notice easier if you start dropping oil etc
spare wheels and tyres, tyre warmers (if you have them, N/A for cars)


shit to take with/pack the day before -
basic tool set
jerry can of fuel
tyre pressure gauge
tyre pump/compressor
jack (stands for the bike)
brake fluid and engine oil
duct tape
cable ties
driving/riding gear (boots, suits, hemlet, gloves etc, check for damage also)
esky/cooler with lots of water and some gatorade etc as well
small, easy to eat and digest foods like bananas, sandwiches etc
spare change of clothes
deodorant
sunscreen
first aid kit
fold out chair or two
marquee if there won't be shade
cleaning stuff for windows/ helmets etc to maintain visibility


On the day -
eat breakfast even if you have to get up earlier
try to drink a litre of water before you start going out on track
do a light jog and some stretching to loosen up


In between sessions -
try to drink at least 300ml of fluid (I drink 3-4L for the day)
eat small amounts of food constantly, nothing fatty (try unsalted mixed nuts, sugar snap peas, fruit, try to have some lean protein as well)
stay in the shade
look over vehicle for signs of damage/faults
top up fuel/fluids if necessary

[GTM_Challenge]

I will concede that skimming will not hurt, but reading the whole book, without ever going on track might not be beneficial from a confidence stand point. We all know the students that come into a track day thinking they know everything. No saying all students do, just saying we know the type that do - why do we want to encourage this behavior?

So maybe I'm coming at this from an instructor mentality. Forgive me if I didn't realize that before.

Even students that have had instruction before - I tell them when I first get in the car that what I am showing them might not exactly be what previous instructors have showed them, but to listen to me and trust me.

My favorite students are the ones that have never been on track before, never read a thing, and admit they know absolutely nothing about driving on a track. Often by the end of the weekend, they are moving faster than other drivers.

The false confidence that knowledge can provide coming into a track day can often hinder learning. Their body and everything they've read tells thing that they are going to wreck, or that the car isn't going to be balanced. It's breaking them of this barrier that is the hardest part for me as in instructor and I often spend most of the first day doing so for the students that need it. Taking them for a ride in my car (even my miata) often helps this. They realize that everything is going to be alright.

I do admit the occasional green student surprises me, but something tells me those students are naturals. They probably didn't do any reading.

Lets take a step back - a student that has read and retains information will (in my opinion) react slower to correct a situation as their mind searches through what they have read looking for answer on how to fix it. Someone who hasn't read may (not necessarily) react quicker as instinct kicks in.

As my father always told me - some of my professors in business school were teaching but had probably not ever been out in the business world before. Sure they knew the concepts but had they actually applied them?

I realize that neither of us will win this discussion as neither of us know each other backgrounds, what formed our opinions, or how we went about learning.

I'm coming at it from the teaching side, while you seem to be coming at it from the drivers side. I could be wrong.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

I'm coming at it from the teaching side, while you seem to be coming at it from the drivers side. I could be wrong.

I approach this from a teaching background. I come at this from a driver's side, a racing side, and instructing side.

What you are describing above is ego, or over confidence, even arrogance. I think you have tied this mental disposition, incorrectly, to act of having prior knowledge of the task. In fact, I say that the arrogant student in your theoretical, that "know it all" would still be a "know it all" regardless of whether or not he/she actually did any prior reading or study. Prior study =\= inflated ego.

I've instructed both the informed and arrogant and the uninformed and arrogant. I've also found that "know it all's" that do have actual prior understanding of the fundamentals are easier to teach because unlike the ones who don't, when you, as an instructor, break through their veil of ego there's actually something there, there's something to work with. It's frustrating when you have one of these "egos" and you break through the veil and there's nothing there. These folks are twice as difficult to teach. I think it's dangerous and inaccurate to assume that prior knowledge, prior study inherently breeds false confidence.

My favorite students are the ones that are previously informed but have an open mind with an expectation to learn. I have found that those who have previous understanding (without previous seat time) learn at vastly greater rates. But then again, YMMV.

The comment about the business professor is interesting. I'm an instructor who's also a racer and has an instructional background outside of the race track. So not only do I teach, but I do.

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

The false confidence that knowledge can provide coming into a track day can often hinder learning. Their body and everything they've read tells thing that they are going to wreck, or that the car isn't going to be balanced. It's breaking them of this barrier that is the hardest part for me as in instructor and I often spend most of the first day doing so for the students that need it. Taking them for a ride in my car (even my miata) often helps this. They realize that everything is going to be alright.

You just described someone having prior knowledge/expectation of crashing or a predisposition of fear. And it is this prior knowledge that impedes them. Of course, it would be silly to suggest there's no such thing as bad prior knowledge, of course there is. Neither of us would recommend that for anyone. So I would suggest that in this case studying crashing before going out to the track day is a bad thing to do and you'd be right. However, I'm advocating for studying the right things to do.

In my instructional experience, in racing, sales, and other sports I've found the most effective means is prior knowledge because during the learning exercises of doing the student starts off knowing the right way to do it. Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. The students will always, 100% of the time eventually do something that isn't perfect or "right" but because they have knowledge of what right looks like (even if they don't yet know what right feels like), they are much better at recognizing mistakes or improper technique and correcting their behavior much quicker than without prior knowledge. I bet your experiences here and mine differ.

So I think there's some truths here that are self evident while there are also some instructional approaches that are simply up to preferences of the instructors. I think of track time not as the classroom but as the test while others view the track time as the class room. My theory is that the track is where we "apply" what we know or what we've learned and look for the result (like a test or a "pre-test") to tell us how well we've learned it and what more we need to work on. The classroom takes place before and after the test. For a new student it's a lot like a pre-test so after and before each session we talk about (analyze) what we've learned and what we're going to apply on the next session.


I think this has been a fruitful discussion, I look forward to your reply. Thank you for your insights.

[Dave-ROR]

I agree with the Ricer. We've had guys sign up for Expo in Advanced with a few autocrosses and no track days because "they don't need an instructor". That doesn't mean they have any prior knowledge, or reading, just that they have a massively over inflated ego.

I admit that I am a bad student if I know my instructor, but I'm 180 from that if I don't know the person. I don't know why I'm like that, I just am. However, I know I'm like that so when I go to a new track, or a new group and get an instructor I simply request someone I don't know. I don't think it's ego (maybe it is though), I think it's more that I'm just too competitive with friends

I also watch in car videos a lot but not always, sometimes we are working on the race car up until the day we head out for a race so no time to study. I've noticed that my laptimes against the field are MUCH better on a new track if I study it via in car videos a lot before going. I lack confidence if I don't do so and as a result I'm much slower without studying ahead of time.

Learning something after the fact never works IMO. Teach before bad habits develop, not afterwards.

[GTM_Challenge]

Eh, I just deleted my last two comments - they didnt make any sense and were worthless to the discussion.

[GTM_Challenge]

This is my issue, and I'll be completely frank and honest - all the time I see people who know way too much about what they are talking about on track - disecting every bit of information - tweaking every little thing on the car - and aren't fast (not saying that about anyone here, just to be clear). Meanwhile, Im out there in a much, much slower car, with three point belts, getting point bys from them. This is the whole basis of my discussion - people who take driving as a sport way way way to serious and aren't very good. Same could be said of any hobby. My mentality has always been, and will forever be, just get out there and drive.

rice, I didn't mean any disrespect when I said where you were coming from. I know you're an accomplished driver, instructor, etc. No body is debating that.

I made the comment about the professor to simply say that the argument of what the educational community says is right and the way they do things isn't always the best int he real world - that all.

I'm just bringing what I've seen first hand to the table and that's whats made my view of reading, etc. And it could also be that I've never read, so I cant comment on reading before going out on track.

What I do know is what worked for me, what brought me up to speed the quickest, and what made the biggest difference for me was listening to my instructor, talking to other drivers more accomplished than myself, and trying different things on track.

You're right - for most people, maybe reading before going on track is better. For me, it wouldn't have helped at all - I wouldn't (and still cant) sit and read a book that contains any relevant information to driving in it. But that's me.

For what I've been through, I dont see reading a necessary, both with my students and myself.

But then again, I'm not a national champion (would have been had I not gotten greedy - damn you traqmate), do not hold any PCA/BMWCCA/etc Instructor licenses, etc. But I do know how to get a student up to speed on track through my own methods - just a natural born teacher if you will. I have my method, you guys have yours - they both work.

[rice_classic]

[GTM_Challenge]

Man, all this debate and I dont even own one of these cars yet.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

Eh, I just deleted my last two comments - they didnt make any sense and were worthless to the discussion.

They weren't that bad of comments

I didn't read before I started either. I wouldn't claim to be great or even fast though.

I just agree that I wouldn't have minded having more information before I started. I did help friends with their DE cars before I bought something to track and helped friends with race cars before I built the first race car so I did learn some before doing it.

I also would definitely not say that reading/learning before doing is required for being fast or that doing so makes you fast.. that's silly