Why you shouldnt support knock off companies..

[arghx7]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

OK, so I think that the OP is refering to fakes as knock offs.

I am willing to concede that if a company literally copies another company's product down to the logo it is a knock-off. Then you are intentionally trying to deceive the customer and steal a trademark.

If that is the core of this discussion, that companies would for example make exhausts that say "HKS" on them when they aren't HKS, then I'll buy that. But in most cases the issue is much more murky, like Rotas vs Volks.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by arghx7

I am willing to concede that if a company literally copies another company's product down to the logo it is a knock-off. Then you are intentionally trying to deceive the customer and steal a trademark.

If that is the core of this discussion, that companies would for example make exhausts that say "HKS" on them when they aren't HKS, then I'll buy that. But in most cases the issue is much more murky, like Rotas vs Volks.

In alot of cases, it's even more murky than that. Some Chinese manufacturer might produce an exhaust from scratch and market it to an American distributor who fine tunes it with the OEM back in China. The exhausts are produced and the A-bin ones go to the A-list distributor. The B-bin exhausts might be sold on ebay as "generics". Same factory and same "engineering". What if another Chinese manufacturer copies off the Chinese OEM?

Some knock offs are fine. They keep businesses from endlessly ripping off customers and drives efficiency. If it weren't for Chinese knock offs, everything for this car would probably cost twice as much just because businesses could charge that much. Rotas vs Volks is a great example. Rotas look like Volks but they aren't exact copies down to the stickers and stamps. They are generally safe and their existence keeps the price of wheels in general lower. Everyone knows Volks are lighter and better made and it's not hard to distinguish between a Volk and a Rota.

[whaap]

Originally Posted by scyzer

Your hate shouldn't be directed at the Chinese - who will produce basically anything to the cost/quality they're asked to - but rather those individuals who consciously choose these dangerous goods.

This is what it's all about.. China is getting blamed simply because that's the country the unethical manufacturers can go to and get their knock-offs made the cheapest.

[Mobius357]

Word use and definitions being used here are pretty vague and inconsistent. Most of whats being talked about here are Counterfeits. Counterfeits have a legal definition, and are illegal, even in China. The chances of legal action against counterfeits in China are slim to none though, the government and legal system aren't going to do anything about it. There's no moral grey area here at all, Counterfeits are illegal.

The term knockoff is vague and not consistently defined, but given that we have a legally defined term, I prefer to use knockoff to describe very similar, less expensive products that are not marketed deceptively. As long as there's no attempt at deception, I don't see any problem. Most of the consumers for these products cannot afford the more expensive original product, and wouldn't be buying it anyway. Likewise, consumers in the market for the more expensive product probably won't compromise on quality and will buy the original. Joe shmo who needs to use a tool a couple times is fine shopping from Harbor Freight. But a professional auto mechanic would be buying their tools from Snapon or Ingersol Rand.

Again though, most of whats being talked about here are Counterfeits.

[whaap]

This topic reminds me of something that happened to me back in the 80's. My wife and I were living in San Diego at the time and were very active in the sailing community.

Even though I worked in an office environment I had a little money making side line going making nautical rope work. They were sold under the label of "Marlin Spike Sailor". The main nautical things I made were turks head bracelets and bell ropes. I sold them to many of the marine stores in town. They were unique and they were expensive. When the Queen of England sailed into San Diego she was presented a plaque with a ships bell that had one of my ropes on it. About once a month I'd make rounds to the various marine stores replenishing their supply.

Then one day I went into my biggest store and what did I see in their show case? The identical rope that I made. The only difference was the small stuff (rope) used to make it was a cheaper softer material. It's not possible that two different people could make the identical, twist for tuck, bell rope. It was obvious to me that the store had sent one of my ropes to another source to have them made at a cheaper price. I never learned who they were using as I turned and walked out without talking to any one. However, whether it was another person or another country that did the work it wasn't their fault.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by Mobius357

Word use and definitions being used here are pretty vague and inconsistent. Most of whats being talked about here are Counterfeits. Counterfeits have a legal definition, and are illegal, even in China. The chances of legal action against counterfeits in China are slim to none though, the government and legal system aren't going to do anything about it. There's no moral grey area here at all, Counterfeits are illegal.

The term knockoff is vague and not consistently defined, but given that we have a legally defined term, I prefer to use knockoff to describe very similar, less expensive products that are not marketed deceptively. As long as there's no attempt at deception, I don't see any problem. Most of the consumers for these products cannot afford the more expensive original product, and wouldn't be buying it anyway. Likewise, consumers in the market for the more expensive product probably won't compromise on quality and will buy the original. Joe shmo who needs to use a tool a couple times is fine shopping from Harbor Freight. But a professional auto mechanic would be buying their tools from Snapon or Ingersol Rand.

Again though, most of whats being talked about here are Counterfeits.

I don't think anyone is talking about counterfeits. People aren't buying Chinese 500hp intercooler kits off ebay and trying to parade it around as an ARC. I don't think anyone here is condoning counterfeits? I don't consider rota grids to be counterfeit volk te-37s, they just look similiar. I'm sure rota could get volk stamped all over the rims with stickers and the whole 9 yards if they wanted to produce a counterfeit.

[raz0rbladez909]

Originally Posted by industrial

I'm sure rota could get volk stamped all over the rims with stickers and the whole 9 yards if they wanted to produce a counterfeit.

Sadly I've seen many people with Rotas actually do this and try to pass it off as real, some even try to sell them that way.

I've argued about this for years, and honestly now, I could care less what others buy. People are going to buy what their budget permits, and as much as we want to say "Save up and buy the original", many people just don't care for the name brand one way or another.

To me, it makes no sense to try to build your car to make it better, then end up making it worse in some ways due to wanting to cheap out. There are plenty of affordable options out there when it comes to aftermarket components, and I really don't see any point in trying to rush just to say you have another aftermarket product.

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by scyzer

I agree that the Chinese produce a large number of dodgy goods and would like that add that the real issue isn't about the quality of the items they produce but rather the demand that brings those items onto foreign shores.

Demand in this case = Greed (from both the US and Chinese citizens)

Originally Posted by scyzer

Using your example, the only reason dangerous counterfeit air-bags have made it onto US domestic vehicles is due to someone (who most likely knew that they were purchasing counterfeit safety products) deciding to purchase them anyway.

Yes, you are correct and for the sake of this argument lets be 100% clear who is making this lethal choice. It is not being made by the individuals or even the insurance companies involved in accidents. It's the cooked body shops who are installing these things and charging the normal rates for them. This is about airbags branded and packed up like OEM parts with real OEM part numbers on them and plugs that fit. I drop my banged up car with the body shop and two weeks later it's fixed. How would I know the airbag is counterfeit? That's never a choice any sane person would make...

Originally Posted by scyzer

Your hate shouldn't be directed at the Chinese - who will produce basically anything to the cost/quality they're asked to - but rather those individuals who consciously choose these dangerous goods.

My hate is well supported and intentionally directed...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ULm6QrC428&feature=fvwrel"]Crashtest Comparison: German vs. Chinese Cars - YouTube[/ame]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal

By November 2008, China reported an estimated 300,000 victims,[1] with six infants dying from kidney stones and other kidney damage, and a further 860 babies hospitalised.[2][3] The chemical appeared to have been added to milk to cause it to appear to have a higher protein content. In a separate incident four years before, watered-down milk had resulted in 13 infant deaths from malnutrition

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-scandals.html

On Tuesday, China's cabinet, known as the State Council, unveiled a 3-year plan to counter an ongoing avalanche of food scandals ranging from fake pigs ears to yogurt laced with rotten leather and, this week, beer brewed with hydrochloric acid and formaldehyde

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/06/wo...rugs.html?_r=0

The crackdown comes amid growing concerns about the prevalence of counterfeit drugs and tainted food supplies in China, and increasingly sophisticated counterfeiting operations. The government acknowledged Sunday that the manufacturing of fake drugs had become harder to detect. Earlier this year, the authorities in Zhejiang Province, not far from Shanghai, discovered that hospital workers were saving old packages, including those of high-end medications, and reselling them to drug counterfeiters to refill with fake drugs.

... I'm not sure why but there's is something fundamentally broken with the moral compass of Chinese businessmen. The Chinese have repeatedly demonstrated a callous disregard for the health and safety of others in return for healthy profits.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

... I'm not sure why but there's is something fundamentally broken with the moral compass of Chinese businessmen. The Chinese have repeatedly demonstrated a callous disregard for the health and safety of others in return for healthy profits.

Oh shut the fuck up. Every country has crooked business men. Are you honestly telling me Americans and Europeans have never done similar/worse things? The capitalistic model is flawed bro. The whole fucking model. When greed runs unchecked, these kinds of things happen. It's not just China.

You just hate the Chinese.

[neurokinetik]

Originally Posted by arghx7

I'm going to go back to my piston bowl example again. Take a look at practically every Mahle piston marketed for aftermarket performance applications on direct injection engines. They have almost the exact same piston bowls as OEM, depending on the application. I've had this discussion with Mahle performance parts reps at car shows. A rep told me straight up that they try to copy the stock design as much as possible. Do you have any idea how much money it costed for the OEM to design and test that piston bowl? Now if I were Mahle, I'd do the same thing. They can't afford to design their own for such a low-volume application.

Don't know if you are aware of this, but Mahle is also a supplier of parts for OEM. So it isn't really a good comparison, since they may be making the original OEM part to begin with, along with the upgraded version. So it is basically a no-brainer for them to re-use the existing stock design, as they would actually have the original engineering drawings from making the OEM part!

[RWD-boxer]

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

Demand in this case = Greed (from both the US and Chinese citizens)



Yes, you are correct and for the sake of this argument lets be 100% clear who is making this lethal choice. It is not being made by the individuals or even the insurance companies involved in accidents. It's the cooked body shops who are installing these things and charging the normal rates for them. This is about airbags branded and packed up like OEM parts with real OEM part numbers on them and plugs that fit. I drop my banged up car with the body shop and two weeks later it's fixed. How would I know the airbag is counterfeit? That's never a choice any sane person would make...



My hate is well supported and intentionally directed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-scandals.html



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/06/wo...rugs.html?_r=0



... I'm not sure why but there's is something fundamentally broken with the moral compass of Chinese businessmen. The Chinese have repeatedly demonstrated a callous disregard for the health and safety of others in return for healthy profits.

To be fair, China is just starting to catch up with the other 1st world countries. I would not expect their safety and standard to be up to par with everybody else. In just 50 years, we have come a long way, they will have to do the same mistakes we made, and yes that includes peoples dying.

It's not like we are perfect over here, legislations over asbestos, safety belts, lead paint, etc... all those are not that old.

The problem I see is they got so high-tech so fast, it's just bound to happen.

[xwd]

I would expect them to, this is the 21st century. The scientists and engineers in China are just as smart as those found anywhere else. The issue comes down to lax regulations, which they are trying to change since they are more and more in a worldwide spotlight.

People will cut corners to make a buck and if the regulations aren't in place, they will, doesn't matter what country it is.

As for knockoff car parts, I try to at least buy parts from vendors where I know where parts and materials originated from. You may be buying an exhaust from someone in the US but the piping might have come from China... As for the Rota example, I have owned a few sets of Rotas. I would not have owned a few sets of Volks and Work wheels, I'm not taking any money out of their pocket because it never would have been there to begin with.

It's the same argument with software/movie/etc. piracy. They claim they are losing billions of dollars but the fact is most of the stuff people pirate they never would have purchased to begin with.

[jkonquer]

Fact of matter is counterfeit chinese product drives businesses out and raise prices on products. I own a clothing business and half of products out there are counterfeits. US laws are not strick enough with countefeit products, not to mention chinese promote counterfeit products in their country which make near impossible to stop the productions.
Simply think about the phrase "you get what you paid for." Fake is fake no matter how good they look. Its true with quality product you will only pay once