Anybody here getting that greasy "$27k" feeling?

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

One question; when you say out the door for $25k are you saying TTL, so really around $23k? Not sure what you mean by out the door.

So in your honest opinion what makes this car "worth" $25k? Also not sure what you mean $30k is the new $20k? I know inflation and all that jazz, but look at this;

Honda Civic Si: $22,205
Mazdaspeed3: $23,700
VW GTI: $23,695
Ford Mustang V6: $22,605
Hyundai GC 2.0T: $22,250
Mini Cooper S: $23,700
Mazda Miata: $23,110

Average price: $23,037.86

So if you are saying $25k out the door to include TTL (so that would be around $23k) I could buy that. However I can't buy a MSRP of $25k as being the low end. That is a full $2,000 over the other cars that it will be compared to/cross shopped.

What does this car include over the others that makes it a full $2k more expensive? No turbo that is for sure. I just can't believe $25k will be the low end. I see that as the upper end with it fully loaded (for those that get the Toyota/Subaru version, not the Scion). If $30k is the new $20k, then the cars I listed above must be the old $10k cars.

My guess is $24,495, and I base that on the FT-86's closest competitor: the Miata. The base $23,110 Miata Sport only has a 5-speed and no limited-slip diff, so for comparison, we have to jump to the Touring Soft Top and add the suspension package ($500). The MSRP is now $26,050. Subtract a (semi-arbitrary) "convertible premium" of $1,555, and you're looking down the barrel at $24,495. Conveniently, a base price of $24,495 for a 200 hp FT-86 also falls between the base prices of the Miata Sport ($23,110, 172 hp) and the base price of the RX-8 ($26,795, 232 hp).

Oh, I'd love for it to start under $23,000, but I just don't think that's realistic.

[ichitaka05]

My hope is $21... I think that's possible have. Take all out, nothing on and you just adds whatever you want to it... but down side to that is additional stuff prob gonna cost arm & leg for (example: LSD for $1500 or something ridiculous) and prob end up close to north of $20k

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

My guess is $24,495, and I base that on the FT-86's closest competitor: the Miata. The base $23,110 Miata Sport only has a 5-speed and no limited-slip diff, so for comparison, we have to jump to the Touring Soft Top and add the suspension package ($500). The MSRP is now $26,050. Subtract a (semi-arbitrary) "convertible premium" of $1,555, and you're looking down the barrel at $24,495. Conveniently, a base price of $24,495 for a 200 hp FT-86 also falls between the base prices of the Miata Sport ($23,110, 172 hp) and the base price of the RX-8 ($26,795, 232 hp).

Oh, I'd love for it to start under $23,000, but I just don't think that's realistic.

You don't get market share after being out of the sports car genre by pricing yourself towards the upper end. You undercut the competition and then raise the prices as you move towards production end.

What does Toyota do when Hyundai pops a new engine in the GC 2.0T? Or the the Mazda drops significant weight like the plans are?

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

My hope is $21... I think that's possible have. Take all out, nothing on and you just adds whatever you want to it... but down side to that is additional stuff prob gonna cost arm & leg for (example: LSD for $1500 or something ridiculous) and prob end up close to north of $20k

This. Just look at the rest of the Scion lineup this car is going to slot into. A +$25k base car doesn't make sense for the whole idea behind Scion.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

One question; when you say out the door for $25k are you saying TTL, so really around $23k? Not sure what you mean by out the door.

I mean final out the door price, so T/T/T included at $25K...which I guess does translate to $23ish.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

What does this car include over the others that makes it a full $2k more expensive?

More sportiness: A finely tuned suspension, better brakes, and lighter weight materials.

[bofa]

Originally Posted by oneday

I mean final out the door price, so T/T/T included at $25K...which I guess does translate to $23ish.




More sportiness: A finely tuned suspension, better brakes, and lighter weight materials.

I would also add RWD, better weight distribution (assumed), lower center of gravity, maybe standard HIDs?, and access to a decently tuned boxer engine (lets face it, you cant get into a WRX short of the upper 20s range).

I think there are a lot benefits to those of us following this car. To the average consumer though they will be less apparent, and perception is responsible for sales, especially when most people are not enthusiasts. I think low 20s will move these things pretty well, even at 25 with TTT. (Just keep in mind with OTD arguments that TTT varies greatly state to state.)

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by oneday

I mean final out the door price, so T/T/T included at $25K...which I guess does translate to $23ish.




More sportiness: A finely tuned suspension, better brakes, and lighter weight materials.

We agree. I can see $25k out the door with TTL. A lot of the other cars that I listed the pricing with also have very finely tuned suspensions, great brakes. This Toyota hopefully completes the job and is successful with being lighter.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by bofa

I would also add RWD, better weight distribution (assumed), lower center of gravity, maybe standard HIDs?, and access to a decently tuned boxer engine (lets face it, you cant get into a WRX short of the upper 20s range).

I would love standard HIDs but I'm not holding my breath. Hopefully they have at least projectors.

Sure you can get a WRX for ~$25k. Just get the base model and not the premium or limited version. The premium and limited just add weight with moonroof, heated front seats, and leather seats. All the good stuff that you as an enthusiast want is the same between them.

Originally Posted by bofa

I think there are a lot benefits to those of us following this car. To the average consumer though they will be less apparent, and perception is responsible for sales, especially when most people are not enthusiasts. I think low 20s will move these things pretty well, even at 25 with TTT. (Just keep in mind with OTD arguments that TTT varies greatly state to state.)

I agree. Just depends on how Toyota/Subaru want to market this car. Do they just want to focus on the enthusiast crowd? Or go more mainstream and try to get the average Joe and Betty into a sporty RWD, light weight, fun to drive car? If Toyota didn't cut corners, this will be a great car and the enthusiasts will flock to it (as long as it isn't over priced for what you get). But for the average person, I'm not sure how you sell this car to them. Sporty cars are a real niche of the market. If it gets good mpg I guess you can try to sell that. On top of that if it looks great as well, you can try to sell that. But not sure how you sell RWD and lightweight to a person who probably won't care about those things. Ultimately this car isn't meant to be a huge seller. But I wan't the car to be successful so it continues and they bring out future models.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Honda Civic Si: $22,205
Mazdaspeed3: $23,700
VW GTI: $23,695
Ford Mustang V6: $22,605
Hyundai GC 2.0T: $22,250
Mini Cooper S: $23,700
Mazda Miata: $23,110

Average price: $23,037.86

Woah Nelly. Few of your listed cars are sold at their base prices. The MINI is the undisputed king of options; the people I know that've recently bought an MCS had sticker prices in the 26-28k range for modestly equipped configurations [not dragging a marker down the options page]. Base price does not equal sale price, so don't get anal on averaging base prices to the penny and think you've made worthwhile data. Furthermore, all those prices will change next model year as every OEM adjusts for inflation.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

..... If $30k is the new $20k, then the cars I listed above must be the old $10k cars.

Economic inflation isn't slowing down, and that means your money is becoming less valuable every year. The kind of new car $20k bought back in year 2000 approximates the class of new car you can buy now for $30k. No, you don't need to go Google it and prove that I'm a few dollars off. It's just a catch phrase, not meant to be literal, just conceptual.

[bofa]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I would love standard HIDs but I'm not holding my breath. Hopefully they have at least projectors.

Sure you can get a WRX for ~$25k. Just get the base model and not the premium or limited version. The premium and limited just add weight with moonroof, heated front seats, and leather seats. All the good stuff that you as an enthusiast want is the same between them.

Same here... love my HIDs and I can't stand when people put them in standard reflector housings. The WRX you speak of is hard to find, at least here. There are almost no base models with no add-ons. Even if there were though, by the time you pay TTT you are in the 27 range. (btw I hate taking out the door pricing... but thats what I was working with based on the other poster)

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I agree. Just depends on how Toyota/Subaru want to market this car. Do they just want to focus on the enthusiast crowd? Or go more mainstream and try to get the average Joe and Betty into a sporty RWD, light weight, fun to drive car? If Toyota didn't cut corners, this will be a great car and the enthusiasts will flock to it (as long as it isn't over priced for what you get). But for the average person, I'm not sure how you sell this car to them. Sporty cars are a real niche of the market. If it gets good mpg I guess you can try to sell that. On top of that if it looks great as well, you can try to sell that. But not sure how you sell RWD and lightweight to a person who probably won't care about those things. Ultimately this car isn't meant to be a huge seller. But I wan't the car to be successful so it continues and they bring out future models.

I think because of what this car means to the brand they have to go big and target the average consumer. Not many cars target specific enthusiast groups and when they do, sales are almost always abysmal. I'm with you - I want this car to be successful so we see continued development and additional competition in the segment.

[PAImportTuner]

You guys gotta be out your mind thinking about $25k starting prices. Just a show of hands how many of you are going to buy this in the 1st year or is this a god damn pipe dream for yall?? I can buy this right away yet somehow I won't even touch it at over $23k. I mean do I value money more than others? Am I not seeing the value of this car? I mean someone please enlighten me. I don't want to hear about monetary or political BS, I want to know why this car deserves to be priced higher over other better sport compacts and close to more featured cars(5.0GT, 370, WRX)?

I for one am not paying over 22,999 for one. Or else I'll just get a WRX or perhaps new DI Gen Coupe. I honestly think the car is worth 21-22k no more and no less.

TMC is going to see this submission all over forums and it will then be that price and I WILL NOT get it.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Woah Nelly. Few of your listed cars are sold at their base prices. The MINI is the undisputed king of options; the people I know that've recently bought an MCS had sticker prices in the 26-28k range for modestly equipped configurations [not dragging a marker down the options page]. Base price does not equal sale price, so don't get anal on averaging base prices to the penny and think you've made worthwhile data. Furthermore, all those prices will change next model year as every OEM adjusts for inflation.

Woooo slimmer jimmer. Give me a meter metric to compare cars then. Obviously I used the base price as that is the best metric for comparing base vs. base. Packages and options vary from buyer to buyer. However the base price is "constant" across the board as being the base price. Find me data on all those cars for the most commonly purchased end price? So far I am the only one that actually brought data into the discussion to make a comparison. If you have data, please bring it. Otherwise you are just being subjective and we can move along.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Economic inflation isn't slowing down, and that means your money is becoming less valuable every year. The kind of new car $20k bought back in year 2000 approximates the class of new car you can buy now for $30k. No, you don't need to go Google it and prove that I'm a few dollars off. It's just a catch phrase, not meant to be literal, just conceptual.

Actually you aren't correct since there are many models that have been able to stay close to their pricing many years back and have not followed the trend of inflation. So you CAN NOT make a broad sweep statement like that for autos. Everything is highly dependent. However I agree there are some cars that have seen incredible amounts of inflation, specifically sports cars and luxury cars come to mind. Here are just two quick examples of cars staying fairly close to their pricing over the past several years.

2002 Civic Coupe EX w/ side airbags manual= $16,760
2012 Civic Coupe LX manual comes standard with side airbags and more standard creature comforts and not to mention a better engine= $17,655

2003 WRX STI= $31,520
2011 WRX STI= $33,995

[bofa]

It's kind of hard to compare prices this way though. For example in 03 the 350Z started out at 24980 and now the 370Z starts at 31450... a whopping $6500 (or +26%). At the same time though, the base model now includes features that were extra options or part of upgraded packages, a newly configured engine with more displacement, HP, Torque, redesigned interior with a bit more trunk space, etc. Whereas the Civic mentioned by Tranz is a lot more modest.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by bofa

The WRX you speak of is hard to find, at least here. There are almost no base models with no add-ons. Even if there were though, by the time you pay TTT you are in the 27 range. (btw I hate taking out the door pricing... but thats what I was working with based on the other poster)

Where do you live? The WRX/STIs are hard to come by now since they are at the end of the model year. Very few left in the country. So you either have to get it earlier in the model year or have them special order exactly what you want.

I agree, talking TTL/out the door pricing isn't worthwhile since that is highly dependent on your state/county here in the USA. It is better to speak of MSRP since that will be the same across the country.

Originally Posted by bofa

I think because of what this car means to the brand they have to go big and target the average consumer. Not many cars target specific enthusiast groups and when they do, sales are almost always abysmal. I'm with you - I want this car to be successful so we see continued development and additional competition in the segment.

Imagine if this car is successful and forces Honda to come out with some exciting, as well as Mazda (RX9 please!!), and maybe even get something from Mitsu that isn't an Evo. More competition the better.

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

You guys gotta be out your mind thinking about $25k starting prices. Just a show of hands how many of you are going to buy this in the 1st year or is this a god damn pipe dream for yall?? I can buy this right away yet somehow I won't even touch it at over $23k. I mean do I value money more than others? Am I not seeing the value of this car? I mean someone please enlighten me. I don't want to hear about monetary or political BS, I want to know why this car deserves to be priced higher over other better sport compacts and close to more featured cars(5.0GT, 370, WRX)?

I for one am not paying over 22,999 for one. Or else I'll just get a WRX or perhaps new DI Gen Coupe. I honestly think the car is worth 21-22k no more and no less.

TMC is going to see this submission all over forums and it will then be that price and I WILL NOT get it.

I agree. I think $23k would be a fair price, but I might go up to $24-25 depending on the specs and features. But $23-23.5 would hit a real nice sweet spot for the base. Then you can get the options to your hearts delight and push it closer to $26-27k if that is what someone wants to spend. I sure don't.

[bofa]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

You guys gotta be out your mind thinking about $25k starting prices. Just a show of hands how many of you are going to buy this in the 1st year or is this a god damn pipe dream for yall?? I can buy this right away yet somehow I won't even touch it at over $23k. I mean do I value money more than others? Am I not seeing the value of this car? I mean someone please enlighten me. I don't want to hear about monetary or political BS, I want to know why this car deserves to be priced higher over other better sport compacts and close to more featured cars(5.0GT, 370, WRX)?

I for one am not paying over 22,999 for one. Or else I'll just get a WRX or perhaps new DI Gen Coupe. I honestly think the car is worth 21-22k no more and no less.

TMC is going to see this submission all over forums and it will then be that price and I WILL NOT get it.

I think you are overlooking the "Out the door" term being used in the last few pages. 25k OTD in areas that have sales tax is close to the 23k price you expect. Maybe we can all get away from this OTD talk and keep it simple. I think 21-23k is reasonable for the Scion... and the Subie closer to 25k (assuming it offers more than the Scion).

If this car hits the pavement at 25k pure price I think it will be a lot slower to gain momentum, if any.