Anybody here getting that greasy "$27k" feeling?

[switchlanez]

+ the MkI tC which was priced around $15.5k/15.6k in '04 but the rise wasn't even gradual. It ballooned by +$2k/3k towards the end of its same generation run.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Bring on $25,000 and 2500lbs.

This!!

Anyway, with the numbers mentality of the car buying public, I think it will be a hard sell if the price is higher than $23-$25k, considering the competition out there, no matter how good it is. Of course we as enthusiast would still buy it.... but this thing needs to sell dammit.

[bigbcraig]

It's actually going to be really hard to sell IMO if it's as focused and track day oriented as it is...
because generally people buy used when they're about to strip and cage a car.
(This doesn't mean to tone it down, the sound of the latest remport makes me sooo happy)

BUT... it sounds like it'll be awesome. So heres to hoping!



edit: Matador, is that sig new? I lol'd.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by bigbcraig

BUT... it sounds like it'll be awesome. So heres to hoping!



edit: Matador, is that sig new? I lol'd.

yup.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by bigbcraig

edit: Matador, is that sig new? I lol'd.

I thought we were talking about cars in this thread?

[oneday]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

You are forgetting the V6 Mustang and GC 2.0T that will be cross shopped. If this car is more than $23-25k for the base it will be a failure. Look at price for MS3, WRX, GC 2.0T...etc.

I don't think it's going to need to directly compete for the MS3/WRX or Mustang shoppers (maybe a few 'stangers). Since those are much bigger and "more practical" cars. Anyone that even remotely thinks they need a back seat, four doors, or a hatchback will not even consider the FR-S.

Originally Posted by JohnnyR

From that recent interview with them alluding to no CD player/Nav, it sounds like you'll be able to get a pretty striped down car.

Oh, my...this keeps getting better and better! I might have a very tough choice to make next spring depending on the used P-car marketplace.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Bring on $25,000 and 2500lbs.

If we are dreaming...why not $22,000 and 2200lbs? I'd be happy with the 26s though.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

...I think it will be a hard sell if the price is higher than $23-$25k, considering the competition out there, no matter how good it is. Of course we as enthusiast would still buy it.... but this thing needs to sell dammit.

I agree. Even if the car is priced on the cheap-end, it'll have to be better than the current Miata for me to actually buy it. Better defined as sexier, higher perceived quality interior with more current-gen electronics and interfacing, just as good handling/feel/emotion/sound, just as quick.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by oneday

I don't think it's going to need to directly compete for the MS3/WRX or Mustang shoppers (maybe a few 'stangers). Since those are much bigger and "more practical" cars. Anyone that even remotely thinks they need a back seat, four doors, or a hatchback will not even consider the FR-S.

You are wrong. Many on here have mentioned waiting to hear about the new WRX before deciding on the FT86. If the rumors about the next gen WRX are true, I might even wait for it. Mustang is definitely going to be cross shopped, especially by those that want the hp/tq for straigtline performance. The MS3 is probably the best bang for the buck under $24k for a fun daily driver. So yes, all of those cars will be cross shopped along with the GTI, GC 2.0T...etc.

[SUB-FT86]

This car shouldnt be sold for more than 22k period.

[iff2mastamatt]

Most Toyotas are more expensive than their American and Korean competition. Even if it was similar to a Mini Cooper as someone else mentioned in a another thread, I'd still pay the 2 grand more for the FR-S because Toyota makes better quality cars.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Many on here have mentioned waiting to hear about the new WRX before deciding on the FT86. If the rumors about the next gen WRX are true, I might even wait for it.

Granted I have a very different perspective/expectations than most users on this forum, but I fail to see how the FR-S will be in the scope of a WRX shopper. That said, if the next gen WRX is a departure from the current Impreza line-up I can kind of see that...but the 2011 Impreza WRX is a HUGE car...The FR-S is, by all modern criteria, a very small car. That's like cross-shopping a Fiat 500 and a WRX or Speed3...I don't see the relevance.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Mustang is definitely going to be cross shopped, especially by those that want the hp/tq for straigtline performance.

If you are considering the FR-S because you want a car that is fast down the 1/4 mile then you are an idiot. The people that are considering a 3.0 and the FR-S are doing so because both are [hopefully] priced similarly and both [again, hopefully] handle reasonably well. I considered the 3.0 for a bit as a future track car, but the consumables on a 3400+lb car are substantially more than a 2600lber.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

The MS3 is probably the best bang for the buck under $24k for a fun daily driver.

No doubt the MS3 is a great deal. It is also big, heavy, FWD, and suffering from terrible torque steer, a bit of turbo lag, and plows through every corner. Someone, like myself, that wants an reasonably economical, sporty, good handling car is not shopping an MS3 (or WRX or 370Z).

Originally Posted by tranzformer

So yes, all of those cars will be cross shopped along with the GTI, GC 2.0T...etc.

Again, I can see the GC2.0T and even the 3.0 Mustang...but GTI? Europhiles tend to stay true to their Europhile ways...the FR-S is not hipster enough for the VW crowd...with Sirocco owners being the exception.

The cars I see as being direct competitors are 3.0 Mustang, GC2.0T, Civic Si, MX-5, and Mini Cooper S...I wouldn't be surprised to see people shop the Fiat 500 Arbath if that comes stateside too.

[SUB-FT86]

Some folks are strange shoppers....lol

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by oneday

Granted I have a very different perspective/expectations than most users on this forum, but I fail to see how the FR-S will be in the scope of a WRX shopper. That said, if the next gen WRX is a departure from the current Impreza line-up I can kind of see that...but the 2011 Impreza WRX is a HUGE car...The FR-S is, by all modern criteria, a very small car. That's like cross-shopping a Fiat 500 and a WRX or Speed3...I don't see the relevance.

Someone who buys a new car doesn't look at weight, lsd, 6spd manual, low center of gravity..etc. They say, "I have $24k I can afford to spend on a new car. Let's go online to yahoo auto/edmunds and see what is in that price. Oh wow, car's x, y, and z are within my price. Cool. Going to go check them out and take them for a test drive." It is a very small portion of enthusiasts who worry about the details like us in regards to the engine design, weight of the car, sterring feel, lsd..etc. So please get that into your head. Car's get cross shopped by being in the same price range as well as similar type of car. Now we can argue if a MS3 is similar to a FT86 or if a GC is similar to a FT86. But to the average person looking for a fun car, they are. If you want to get down to the details and dissect it, sure there are many differences that distinguish them. But the typical car buyer doesn't go all the way down to those small differences? Got it? They go off looks, price, and if the car is in the segment of cars they want to buy.

Originally Posted by oneday

If you are considering the FR-S because you want a car that is fast down the 1/4 mile then you are an idiot. The people that are considering a 3.0 and the FR-S are doing so because both are [hopefully] priced similarly and both [again, hopefully] handle reasonably well. I considered the 3.0 for a bit as a future track car, but the consumables on a 3400+lb car are substantially more than a 2600lber.

Are you ESL? I never said someone would buy the FT86 for straight line performance. Anyone following this car would know so much, so hopefully you do. However someone looking to spend $25k on a sporty RWD coupe will definitely look at the V6 Mustang. They would be an idiot if they didn't. However in the end, primarily here in the USA, people want the 0-60 and 1/4mile times. They love straight line speed. As a result there will be many, just like posters on here, who say if it doesn't have at least 280hp I won't buy it because it needs more hp than my 271hp Honda Accord. So yes people will cross shop the FT86 with the V6 Mustang and pick the Mustang for the increased hp and torques without really looking at the big picture. There are other of us that will pick the FT86 over the Mustang because we appreciate the light weight aspect of a car that is fun to drive.

Originally Posted by oneday

No doubt the MS3 is a great deal. It is also big, heavy, FWD, and suffering from terrible torque steer, a bit of turbo lag, and plows through every corner. Someone, like myself, that wants an reasonably economical, sporty, good handling car is not shopping an MS3 (or WRX or 370Z).

And yet how many car shoppers do you know that actually know the weights of the cars they are considering buying? Take a guess. Most people know the hp, mpg and the MSRP. That is about it. Unfortunately with the typical buyer that is all they care about. Most people don't know FWD/AWD/RWD unless they are a car enthusiast or buy a particular vehicle for the drivetrain layout (Subaru).

Btw you are mistaken about the MS3. For a $24k FWD turbo car it is amazing for the money. It is heavy to what, a Miata? Sure. But is is right there with everything else in its class. And it doesn't plow through every corner. Have you ever driven one? By far better handling than any GTI, Mini, Civic Si or even the 2009-2011 WRX. Not sure what you are smoking.

Btw you aren't cross shopping the 370z because the model you will want will cost a good $10-12k more than the FT86 should start off at. Plus it gets worse gas mileage. I would call both the MS3 and WRX to be economical, sporty and good handling cars. Just depends what your definition of economical is (I think under $25k is economical), sporty (subjective) and good handling (haven't heard anyone knock the MS3 or WRX for poor handling in reference to their price tag). So in the end, if you specifically want something that is specifically RWD, light, FR and economical then sure you are pigeon holed to something as specific as a Miata or FT86. However if you are more open to being just economical, fun to drive, good handling then it opens the doors to many other cars in the segment. Just depends on one's subjective definition.

Originally Posted by oneday

Again, I can see the GC2.0T and even the 3.0 Mustang...but GTI? Europhiles tend to stay true to their Europhile ways...the FR-S is not hipster enough for the VW crowd...with Sirocco owners being the exception.

The cars I see as being direct competitors are 3.0 Mustang, GC2.0T, Civic Si, MX-5, and Mini Cooper S...I wouldn't be surprised to see people shop the Fiat 500 Arbath if that comes stateside too.

The GTI is a valid comparison. Remember people buy cars based on $$ and the segment of car they want. The GTI comes in a 2 door coupe. If the person doesn't care about the FWD vs. RWD thing, then of course the GTI is a valid comparison since it will be in the same price bracket, gets decent gas mileage, has a ton of tuning capability, has a great interior, has a strong following + aftermarket support...etc.

Since you love to nitpick why would you put a Civic Si on the list but complain about a MS3? MS3 kills the Civic Si based on any metric every car magazine uses. Mini Cooper S? Really? And you won't even put the MS3 or GTI on the list. GTI crowd and the Cooper S crowd would go hand in hand. Fiat 500 Arbath? Why are you including that in the list but not the MS3 or GTI. You are funny.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Are you ESL?

You don't know me. I don't know you. I don't care if you don't agree with me, nor do I care if you like me or not...just don't get personal, the e-bully BS is obviously something you are better than based on the general way you form posts and arguments.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Someone who buys a new car doesn't look at weight, lsd, 6spd manual, low center of gravity..etc. They say, "I have $24k I can afford to spend on a new car. <snip> But to the average person looking for a fun car, they are. If you want to get down to the details and dissect it, sure there are many differences that distinguish them. But the typical car buyer doesn't go all the way down to those small differences? Got it? They go off looks, price, and if the car is in the segment of cars they want to buy.

I admit I live in a world where everything is about cars. My job, my friends, my extracurricular activities, and my online hangouts...so I really do forget that most people are sheep.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I never said someone would buy the FT86 for straight line performance.

No you didn't you said that

Originally Posted by tranzformer

[The] Mustang is definitely going to be cross shopped, especially by those that want the hp/tq for straigtline performance.

The implication is that people that want straightline performance will cross shop the FR-S, which I said was an idiotic thing to do. People that know they want straight line performance will look at the Motor Trend specs before they look at price...once they see the slower 0-60 of the FR-S they will be done shopping it. It's a non-starter.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

There are other of us that will pick the FT86 over the Mustang because we appreciate the light weight aspect of a car that is fun to drive.

I completely agree.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

And yet how many car shoppers do you know that actually know the weights of the cars they are considering buying? Take a guess.

Everyone that I call a friend or socialize with does know these things. But again, I do eat/sleep cars.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Btw you are mistaken about the MS3. For a $24k FWD turbo car it is amazing for the money.

Did I not say that I thought it was a great deal?

Originally Posted by oneday

No doubt the MS3 is a great deal.

Yup. I did.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

It is heavy to what, a Miata? Sure. But is is right there with everything else in its class. And it doesn't plow through every corner. Have you ever driven one? By far better handling than any GTI, Mini, Civic Si or even the 2009-2011 WRX.

I have driven an MS3...both first gen and second gen versions. Though I have never driven either on the street...only on an autox course and a racetrack...that is where they plow. On the street, driven at 6 or 7 10s then they are surely quite docile. The Mk V and VI GTIs also plow when driven hard. The Civic SI is the best handling FWD car* I have driven in a long time. *Clarification: The best stock/street car. .

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Not sure what you are smoking.

Only my inside, front tire lately.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Btw you aren't cross shopping the 370z because the model you will want will cost a good $10-12k more than the FT86 should start off at. Plus it gets worse gas mileage.

No _I_ am not cross shopping the 370Z because I don't really care for it. It's a fantastic car, but not for me. I _AM_ cross shopping a Cayman though...and it is $10-12K more than the FR-S [Side note: I am curious , are you in denial about the naming of the car or are you just referencing the general "FT-86" shared platform?]. The only car I have ruled out as a multi-purpose track/daily vehicle because of mpgs is the RX-8.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I would call both the MS3 and WRX to be economical, sporty and good handling cars. Just depends what your definition of economical is (I think under $25k is economical), sporty (subjective) and good handling (haven't heard anyone knock the MS3 or WRX for poor handling in reference to their price tag).

I agree that WRXs and MS3s are good performance for the dollar. Not sure I get what you are going for with the handling to price reference...

Originally Posted by tranzformer

So in the end, if you specifically want something that is specifically RWD, light, FR and economical then sure you are pigeon holed to something as specific as a Miata or FT86.

I think we also agreed that the GC2.0T would fit that bill.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

The GTI is a valid comparison. Remember people buy cars based on $$ and the segment of car they want. The GTI comes in a 2 door coupe. If the person doesn't care about the FWD vs. RWD thing, then of course the GTI is a valid comparison since it will be in the same price bracket, gets decent gas mileage, has a ton of tuning capability, has a great interior, has a strong following + aftermarket support...etc.

I do think that people that do not currently own a VW will look at the FR-S and some will also look at the GTI...it is a good cross-reference. I don't think most GTI owners will look at the FR-S as a next car for themselves. For better or for worse.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Since you love to nitpick why would you put a Civic Si on the list but complain about a MS3? MS3 kills the Civic Si based on any metric every car magazine uses.

Real world>Car magazine metric. The Civic Si is lighter and more agile than the MS3. Power be damned...the 2006-2010 Civic Si is a fantastic handling car and damn fun to flog.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Mini Cooper S? Really?

Have you ever driven (and I don't mean down the block or on the highway) a Cooper S? It will hand you your ass as soon as you get to an apex. On par with the Miata for handling fun--and I'll retract a statement I made earlier this post...the R53 MCS is the best handling FWD car I have driven. The R56 is good, but does suffer due to the unequal drive shafts.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

And you won't even put the MS3 or GTI on the list. GTI crowd and the Cooper S crowd would go hand in hand.

I'll continue to debate the merits of the MS3, but am willing to consider the GTI as a valid cross.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Fiat 500 Arbath?

Yes. Based on lb/hp and (supposed) handling characteristics and price point. Someone that doesn't need a back seat and wants a tossable fun car will definitely drive the F500A when considering the MCS and Civic SI. Hell, I can't wait to drive one!