Motor Trend, August issue.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Europe being more urbanized doesn't work. Even in rural/farm areas of Europe you don't see big trucks that often. Hell besides the typical farm machinery you tend to see people drive Transit based car.

Even in urban areas of the US; Chicago, NYC, Miami, LA, Atlanta, it still boggles my mind how many trucks you see in the urban environment. So that argument doesn't work. Do I see a purpose for a home builder, contractor, farmer, rancher to use a pickup. Sure. That are you main market share.

Why do you think the mini-trucks of the 80s and 90s died? Someone looking for fuel economy would just buy a Toyota or Honda car. Someone looking to move a lot of stuff or tow, would buy a full sized truck. It is stuck in between the two with no real purpose. Been there done that. What makes you think 2012 would be any different.

They didn't die. They grew bigger, just like the Civic and Corolla did. Now Honda and Toyota filled the niche for the small cars that grew up with the Fit and Yaris. There is a market position available for a resized compact truck, just like the Fit filled the position of the old Civic.

People who use them for work would love a smaller more efficient truck that still has a usable box. And if they were styled well and built strong enough for off-roading, kids would be interested in them as well.

PS: we are not Europe. Nor are we Australia which loves pickup beds so much that they put them on their cars.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

They didn't die. They grew bigger,

They did die. Where is the Chevy S10? Where is the Mazda B series? Whether you want to say they got bigger or died, that is semantics. They no longer exist. Who cares why. Manufacturers no longer felt they represented something worth building. Seems like big trucks rule the roads.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

They did die. Where is the Chevy S10? Where is the Mazda B series? Whether you want to say they got bigger or died, that is semantics. They no longer exist. Who cares why. Manufacturers no longer felt they represented something worth building. Seems like big trucks rule the roads.

S10 was replaced with the larger Canyon. Mazda got out of the pickups, but the B-Series twin is still there as the Ranger. Dakota is huge now, Frontier and Tacoma are bigger than the old Nissan and Toyota trucks.

You have to look at when they grew bigger, economy wise. In the 90s 00s, economy was roaring and gas was cheap. When were they small? 70s and 80s. Now it's time for them to either grow smaller, or add smaller models to the family.

Why are you so against the idea of a small pickup from Toyota or Scion (or trucks in general)? It's not like there is a gun to your head forcing you to buy one...

[Exage]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Want to go off-roading? Buy a used TF or FJ. Who in the world would want to off road their daily driver?

I know quite a few people that DD their off-roading vehicles, granted they're not brand new vehicles per-say.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

But most people don't use logic when they purchase a car and use their "heart."

I'm pretty sure most Americans don't purchase a Toyota Camry with their heart, or a Minivan.

I had requirements that I wanted in a vehicle when purchasing. The XRS simply had those requirements but went above and beyond what I was looking for in every aspect.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Want to go off-roading? Buy a used TF or FJ. Who in the world would want to off road their daily driver?

I still hold that a truck is way overkill for the typical person unless they use it for work, just like madfast. Look at Europe, you hardly see any pickups on the road. You see a bunch of small 3 and 5 door cars and they seem to do fine picking up all their groceries and kids from school. A huge ass pickup is just a waste of metal for the typical car user. But most people don't use logic when they purchase a car and use their "heart."

Probably. But so is a Ferrari, Porche, Maybach, etc. The list goes on and on.

But just because something is overkill, OEM's only market what people need to a certain point. They more market to what people like/think they need.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

They did die. Where is the Chevy S10? Where is the Mazda B series? Whether you want to say they got bigger or died, that is semantics. They no longer exist. Who cares why. Manufacturers no longer felt they represented something worth building. Seems like big trucks rule the roads.

Jesus Christ..... Killing off a Model is WAY different than it changing. Because the Tacoma and Dakota are still around so you can't say they no longer exist. That is just simply wrong.

Define Big Trucks.

Originally Posted by Dimman

S10 was replaced with the larger Canyon. Mazda got out of the pickups, but the B-Series twin is still there as the Ranger. Dakota is huge now, Frontier and Tacoma are bigger than the old Nissan and Toyota trucks.

You have to look at when they grew bigger, economy wise. In the 90s 00s, economy was roaring and gas was cheap. When were they small? 70s and 80s. Now it's time for them to either grow smaller, or add smaller models to the family.

Why are you so against the idea of a small pickup from Toyota or Scion (or trucks in general)? It's not like there is a gun to your head forcing you to buy one...

As you already pointed out though, I wonder what the pricing will be like. After all they don't want to chew into sales of Tacoma's too much.

Originally Posted by Exage

I know quite a few people that DD their off-roading vehicles, granted they're not brand new vehicles per-say.

I'm pretty sure most Americans don't purchase a Toyota Camry with their heart, or a Minivan.

I had requirements that I wanted in a vehicle when purchasing. The XRS simply had those requirements but went above and beyond what I was looking for in every aspect.

I know a few that Wheel their DD that are almost brand new. The Owner of Yotatech.com has a FJ Cruiser he wheels all the time and drives it to work.

[enc0re]

IMHO 95% of people who say they need a truck would be better served by one of these.

Of course then you can't convince yourself that you're a macho cowboy.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by enc0re

IMHO 95% of people who say they need a truck would be better served by one of these.

Of course then you can't convince yourself that you're a macho cowboy.

+1. Agreed. All the functionality of a flat bed with better gas mileage and a covered area to keep items dry and out of the elements. Europe does well with them. Wish we would get more transit based vehicles here.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by enc0re

IMHO 95% of people who say they need a truck would be better served by one of these.

Of course then you can't convince yourself that you're a macho cowboy.

Can't take that camping or hunting.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Can't take that camping or hunting.

Sure you could. Just get the 4x4 version. If you want custom interior just have Sportsmobile one-off fabricate your interior. Plenty of room to still haul lumber during the week depending how you have the interior set up. I would take this over any truck for typical camping or hunting.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Sure you could. Just get the 4x4 version. If you want custom interior just have Sportsmobile one-off fabricate your interior. Plenty of room to still haul lumber during the week depending how you have the interior set up. I would take this over any truck for typical camping or hunting.

4x4 version? Not in Canada yet. And doubtful it has a low range.

Plus there is this:

Base FWD 2.0L 4spd auto Transit: $28,621 CDN
Toyota Tacoma 4x4 4cyl manual: $25,995 CDN
Ford Ranger 4x4 4 cyl manual: $20,876 CDN

And I'm not too keen on having moose carcass, sod, gravel etc... inside my vehicle.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

4x4 version? Not in Canada yet. And doubtful it has a low range.

Plus there is this:

Base FWD 2.0L 4spd auto Transit: $28,621 CDN
Toyota Tacoma 4x4 4cyl manual: $25,995 CDN
Ford Ranger 4x4 4 cyl manual: $20,876 CDN

And I'm not too keen on having moose carcass, sod, gravel etc... inside my vehicle.

Clean the carcass before you leave camp then.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Clean the carcass before you leave camp then.

Sod and gravel and $8000 next?

Meh, my heart's not even that into this argument. Slow info time sucks. Plus I'm bitter about not having a truck, or even a wagon so I can pick up a cheap $450 WRX shortblock that's for sale near me. It will fit nicely all installed in my Legacy, but not in the trunk to carry it home...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

All those things you can do with a Pickup is things you CAN'T do in a Car/SUV. Hence why I brought them up.

yes, but just because you can doesnt mean you necessarily will. and even if you do, how often? and is that representative of the general populace?

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Lots of people get Trucks and never tow/haul anything. They just like the look.

hence all the idiots who buy trucks, only to use the pickup bed once a year...

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Now I know you're an idiot. If Scion is going to make something it's going to at least have the illusion of being sporty. Otherwise why make it a Scion? If it's going to be one more plain jane people getter make it a Toyota.

it can look sporty. but that doesnt mean it has to do 0-60 in 4 secs and pull 0.99 g...

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Are you done making an ass out of yourself? You managed to make an argument for Scion doing what they already doing. Small Cars with lots of Storage space, but you haven't made an argument for an SUV with 4WD. Other than you think it's better than a Truck.... which you base on nothing apparently. Unless you honestly believe that a Truck can't get Groceries.

my argument, that has never changed, is that scion would be better off making a suv/crossover rather than a compact pickup. they make a lot of hatchbacks now, but they dont offer AWD. what's the argument for a compact suv/crossover? simple. its the same core reasons why people buy them to begin with: cargo space, ride height, fuel economy, ride/comfort, etc. its self explanatory.

what isnt self explanatory is why the average family would buy a pickup. all the reasons you state that someone might buy a pickup, turn out to be some out of the ordinary task they do a few times a year. fixing up your home, talking a bag of leaves god knows where, moving couches for a friend, etc, etc. etc.... all of the above is not normal day to day living for most people.

a truck CAN get groceries, BUT WHO WOULD WANT TO???? its one thing to say i have a truck, so i get my groceries in the truck. you have the truck, of course you're gonna use it. but its a whole other story to say i get a lot of groceries, therefore i must buy a pickup... NOBODY says that! but buy a SUV over a car? SURE!!!!!!! tons of people buy suvs EXACTLY for that reason. they need cargo space, but arent going to go to the extreme and get a pickup so you can carry whatever you like whenever you happen to need it....

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Sod and gravel and $8000 next?

Meh, my heart's not even that into this argument. Slow info time sucks. Plus I'm bitter about not having a truck, or even a wagon so I can pick up a cheap $450 WRX shortblock that's for sale near me. It will fit nicely all installed in my Legacy, but not in the trunk to carry it home...

Not sure about pricing as Europe has the Sprinter and Transit 4WD versions. Not sure how cost would be when they come over.

In regards to sod and gravel, just pull a trailer. If you do that day in and day out the pickup will be better. But if you do it once a year you could work around it.