Motor Trend, August issue.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by madfast

again, that's work. im not arguing the worthiness of a pickup bed for moving/carrying shit. im arguing that there is NO place in the market for a scion pickup. scion is a youth oriented, trendy brand. since when was moving your friends couch trendy?

pickups were made to carry shit. if you daily drive a pickup with nothing in the back, waiting for your friend to move so you can save the day with your utility vehicle... im sorry. you do NOT represent the average person. the average person buys a chevy cruze to take their wife, kids, and dog to buy groceries and clothes at the mall....

stylish scion 2dr awd crossover > scion compact pickup...

oh and for the record i've never owned a truck. if you think that somehow invalidates the logic of my argument then so be it...

Originally Posted by madfast

listen to yourself. how many average people have to "haul" stuff?? normal people buy a couple bags of groceries, etc.

dirty stuff? i'd call anything dirty enough that you dont want in your cabin WORK related. or at best recreational items like dirtbikes/atvs... what normal stuff is dirty enough to be separated from the cabin?



well my assertion is that yes, people WOULD buy it. the outlander sport and juke are both starting under 24k. the juke, well under. add options etc and you still wont surpass 25k or whatever.



educate me. how big is the market for a sporty truck? from what little i know, it doesnt seem all too big.

what im trying to separate is the work pickup, from the recreational/dd pickup. if you dd your work truck, in my book that doesnt count. if you do occasional work with your dd truck then ok that counts.




sure. just how many people are out there like you? truck drifting? cmon man, you cant seriously believe that you'd be in the majority here...

Originally Posted by madfast

what i KNOW is that scion would be foolish to sell a pickup instead of a suv/crossover.

if i am wrong then somebody should easily be able to put up real numbers showing me that the market is ready for a recreational, non-work related compact pickup. but until then...

Originally Posted by madfast

and where are you taking all these things? how often? and how is that not work? and towing, that's not work? the average person tows stuff to go to work? to go shopping?

its no use talking about it anymore. im talking about buying a vehicle for everyday use. going to work, school, shopping, restaurant, mall, etc.. you're listing the 10,000 things you can do with a pickup... obviously if you do those kinda things often enough you're gonna get a pickup. but i dunno how many americans actually do...



i never said anything about a SPORTY suv/crossover. just a regular one with enough power to not totally suck. you talked about sporty pickups.

I couldn't agree more with you madfast.

Why drive around in truck that gets horrible gas mileage just so you can "haul" things once or twice a year? If you do serious hauling of stuff or moving of large items (for work or personal) you aren't going to want a small truck anyways. You will go with a F series or some sort. Hell I would hate to have everyone bother me asking me to help them move their stuff all the time. In college if you need to move some stuff, either rent a flatbed truck from Home Depot or a truck from U-Haul. You'll probably spend under $40 for the day and make up that money with better fuel economy with a regular car or a small SUV/cross over vehicle the other 364 days of the year.

Too many people think they need a big truck/SUV. The vast majority never really use it to their design and purpose. Now if you work construction or work on a ranch/farm, sure a big truck will be very useful and a needed item. However for those that live in an urban environment and who drive back and forth to work/school and home, there is no need for that. Now a cheap sporty small SUV/crossover would fit great for Scion. Give it AWD/4x4 as an option, a small turbo4 and I think you will get a lot of interest from those that don't like the looks of a Subaru and want something "safe" with the AWD/4x4 and the possibility of towing their ATV/jet skies on the weekend.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by madfast

and where are you taking all these things? how often? and how is that not work? and towing, that's not work? the average person tows stuff to go to work? to go shopping?

its no use talking about it anymore. im talking about buying a vehicle for everyday use. going to work, school, shopping, restaurant, mall, etc.. you're listing the 10,000 things you can do with a pickup... obviously if you do those kinda things often enough you're gonna get a pickup. but i dunno how many americans actually do...



i never said anything about a SPORTY suv/crossover. just a regular one with enough power to not totally suck. you talked about sporty pickups.

LOL depends on what the "thing" is. I'm not taking a Boat to the backwoods to go camping in. Nor will I take a Camper to the Lake to boat in LOL.

It's not work because nobody is paying me to take my boat to the lake, or mow my grass, or remodel my house. My Work is building Airplanes. Sure you can say mowing the lawn is work. But it's not running a landscaping business. I assumed you were smart enough to make the distinction between having a Job you use a truck for, and just working around the house. I guess I was wrong.

You can do anything you want in a Truck. What can you do in a Car/SUV that you somehow can't do in a Truck? Do they not allow Trucks in the Grocery Store parking lot where you're at? You don't even know what you're arguing now. All those things you can do with a Pickup is things you CAN'T do in a Car/SUV. Hence why I brought them up.

Lots of people get Trucks and never tow/haul anything. They just like the look.

Now I know you're an idiot. If Scion is going to make something it's going to at least have the illusion of being sporty. Otherwise why make it a Scion? If it's going to be one more plain jane people getter make it a Toyota.

Are you done making an ass out of yourself? You managed to make an argument for Scion doing what they already doing. Small Cars with lots of Storage space, but you haven't made an argument for an SUV with 4WD. Other than you think it's better than a Truck.... which you base on nothing apparently. Unless you honestly believe that a Truck can't get Groceries.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I couldn't agree more with you madfast.

Why drive around in truck that gets horrible gas mileage just so you can "haul" things once or twice a year? If you do serious hauling of stuff or moving of large items (for work or personal) you aren't going to want a small truck anyways. You will go with a F series or some sort. Hell I would hate to have everyone bother me asking me to help them move their stuff all the time. In college if you need to move some stuff, either rent a flatbed truck from Home Depot or a truck from U-Haul. You'll probably spend under $40 for the day and make up that money with better fuel economy with a regular car or a small SUV/cross over vehicle the other 364 days of the year.

Too many people think they need a big truck/SUV. The vast majority never really use it to their design and purpose. Now if you work construction or work on a ranch/farm, sure a big truck will be very useful and a needed item. However for those that live in an urban environment and who drive back and forth to work/school and home, there is no need for that. Now a cheap sporty small SUV/crossover would fit great for Scion. Give it AWD/4x4 as an option, a small turbo4 and I think you will get a lot of interest from those that don't like the looks of a Subaru and want something "safe" with the AWD/4x4 and the possibility of towing their ATV/jet skies on the weekend.

I don't know about where you're at, but here you can't rent a UHaul till you're 25. Just saying.

Now were not talking about a Big Truck/SUV. This is Scion, were talking small and sporty.

That being said, an SUV doesn't lend itself to being Sporty. They are heavier, higher center of Gravity, etc. Not that it can't be done The Typhoons proved that. But they also started at $30K.

Trucks on the other hand offer great versatility and because they weigh less tend to have better performance and can also have better Gas Mileage because of that.

Either way, IF something like this was to ever happen it would not be one or the other. There isn't enough market to support just a Sporty SUV or Sporty Truck. All others on the market right now have siblings in regular fashion. They would have to do both just like the Syclone/Typhoon from GMC. But I don't see this happening at all. Maybe in 10 years. But not now. Too much money to be tied up in a venture that won't make much money.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

You can do anything you want in a Truck. What can you do in a Car/SUV that you somehow can't do in a Truck?

In a car: get better gas mileage, still get benefits of AWD (Subaru)
In a SUV/crossover: still have benefits of AWD/4x4. can fit more people in a SUV/Crossover than a truck. Perfect for families with children/soccer moms.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Small Cars with lots of Storage space, but you haven't made an argument for an SUV with 4WD. Other than you think it's better than a Truck.... which you base on nothing apparently. Unless you honestly believe that a Truck can't get Groceries.

Argument for crossover/SUV with 4WD: better gas mileage, more comfortable ride than a truck, can fit more people/kids, all of your groceries/shopping items are inside the car where they are dry (sure you can get a truck cover) but also in the A/C during the summer or heat during the winter.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

In a car: get better gas mileage, still get benefits of AWD (Subaru)
In a SUV/crossover: still have benefits of AWD/4x4. can fit more people in a SUV/Crossover than a truck. Perfect for families with children/soccer moms.

Argument for crossover/SUV with 4WD: better gas mileage, more comfortable ride than a truck, can fit more people/kids, all of your groceries/shopping items are inside the car where they are dry (sure you can get a truck cover) but also in the A/C during the summer or heat during the winter.

You can do that in a Truck with a Quad Cab.

An SUV is not going to get better Gas Mileage than a Truck of comparable size. Simply less weight. Crossover, probably.

I can fit all my Groceries in my Truck with a passenger. It's an Xtra Cab, but even in a Single Cab unless you have someone in the passenger seat it's plausible.

Like I said, I don't this this being feasible without both being offered on the same platform.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

In a car: get better gas mileage, still get benefits of AWD (Subaru)
In a SUV/crossover: still have benefits of AWD/4x4. can fit more people in a SUV/Crossover than a truck. Perfect for families with children/soccer moms.





Argument for crossover/SUV with 4WD: better gas mileage, more comfortable ride than a truck, can fit more people/kids, all of your groceries/shopping items are inside the car where they are dry (sure you can get a truck cover) but also in the A/C during the summer or heat during the winter.

Argument for trucks: Doing stuff that is not possible in cars and CUVs. Just because people often use them for work doesn't invalidate the need for them. Plus wheeling is considered a sport on its own.

It may be that urban people don't 'get' the possibilities of what trucks can allow for them. Not a lot of people living in apartments have dirt bikes, lawn mowers, or even large furniture.

As a Scion or Toyota there is a HUGE market for a compact pickup that's sized under the Tacoma. Optional 4x4 and real off-road package, optional small turbo diesel motor.

These things are fantastically useful. If people want to just look 'tough' with them while they commute, so what? People do the same thing with their 7 passenger S/CUVs, using it to just ferry one person to and from work, and carrying the same amount of stuff that can fit in a Corolla's trunk, or the back of a Yaris.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

You can do that in a Truck with a Quad Cab.

An SUV is not going to get better Gas Mileage than a Truck of comparable size. Simply less weight. Crossover, probably.

I can fit all my Groceries in my Truck with a passenger. It's an Xtra Cab, but even in a Single Cab unless you have someone in the passenger seat it's plausible.

Like I said, I don't this this being feasible without both being offered on the same platform.

Try going shopping with two parents and 4 kids. SUV/crossover just does it better even against a quad cab. Sorry just don't buy it. Plus quad cab is $$. I thought we were comparing a small truck (S-10/Ford Ranger) vs. a small SUV/crossover? Why are you throwing in a quad cab now?

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Argument for trucks: Doing stuff that is not possible in cars and CUVs. Just because people often use them for work doesn't invalidate the need for them. Plus wheeling is considered a sport on its own.

It may be that urban people don't 'get' the possibilities of what trucks can allow for them. Not a lot of people living in apartments have dirt bikes, lawn mowers, or even large furniture.

As a Scion or Toyota there is a HUGE market for a compact pickup that's sized under the Tacoma. Optional 4x4 and real off-road package, optional small turbo diesel motor.

These things are fantastically useful. If people want to just look 'tough' with them while they commute, so what? People do the same thing with their 7 passenger S/CUVs, using it to just ferry one person to and from work, and carrying the same amount of stuff that can fit in a Corolla's trunk, or the back of a Yaris.

A small Diesel in a capable 4Wheeler? SOLD!

But most people don't buy new Trucks to wheel them. Too expensive because you are going to break stuff LOL. But at around $25K, I'll bet it would gain quite a following after a few years and they started to hit the used market.

Toyota won't give us a Diesel in anything though....

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Try going shopping with two parents and 4 kids. SUV/crossover just does it better even against a quad cab. Sorry just don't buy it. Plus quad cab is $$. I thought we were comparing a small truck (S-10/Ford Ranger) vs. a small SUV/crossover? Why are you throwing in a quad cab now?

I never said it does it better, just that it's feasible. If you're basing your car buying soley on being able to take the whole family to the Store, then by all means buy an SUV.

Tacoma, Dakota, etc. All compacts that come in Quad Cab. Even the 80's Trucks could be had in Quad Cab overseas.

Obviously with everything there are tradeoffs. Most people are willing to sacrifice a little to get that Bed and haul stuff.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

A small Diesel in a capable 4Wheeler? SOLD!

But most people don't buy new Trucks to wheel them. Too expensive because you are going to break stuff LOL. But at around $25K, I'll bet it would gain quite a following after a few years and they started to hit the used market.

Toyota won't give us a Diesel in anything though....

If the TRD Off-road 4x4 diesel were priced at $25k, where would the 2WD gas version start at? $18k? Less?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Argument for trucks: Doing stuff that is not possible in cars and CUVs. Just because people often use them for work doesn't invalidate the need for them. Plus wheeling is considered a sport on its own.

It may be that urban people don't 'get' the possibilities of what trucks can allow for them. Not a lot of people living in apartments have dirt bikes, lawn mowers, or even large furniture.

As a Scion or Toyota there is a HUGE market for a compact pickup that's sized under the Tacoma. Optional 4x4 and real off-road package, optional small turbo diesel motor.

These things are fantastically useful. If people want to just look 'tough' with them while they commute, so what? People do the same thing with their 7 passenger S/CUVs, using it to just ferry one person to and from work, and carrying the same amount of stuff that can fit in a Corolla's trunk, or the back of a Yaris.

Want to go off-roading? Buy a used TF or FJ. Who in the world would want to off road their daily driver?

I still hold that a truck is way overkill for the typical person unless they use it for work, just like madfast. Look at Europe, you hardly see any pickups on the road. You see a bunch of small 3 and 5 door cars and they seem to do fine picking up all their groceries and kids from school. A huge ass pickup is just a waste of metal for the typical car user. But most people don't use logic when they purchase a car and use their "heart."

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Want to go off-roading? Buy a used TF or FJ. Who in the world would want to off road their daily driver?

I still hold that a truck is way overkill for the typical person unless they use it for work, just like madfast. Look at Europe, you hardly see any pickups on the road. You see a bunch of small 3 and 5 door cars and they seem to do fine picking up all their groceries and kids from school. A huge ass pickup is just a waste of metal for the typical car user. But most people don't use logic when they purchase a car and use their "heart."

Europe has a way more urbanized population than North America. More people take the train there too. Doesn't apply here.

I know a few people that do off road their daily drivers. Not extreme stuff, maybe trails when they go camping or hunting (also not popular in Europe).

Plus I've never been talking about a huge ass pickup. Something sized like the Toyota mini-truck of the 80s. And the lack of logic applies to all cars. Even the FT86 is going to have a swarm of cosmetic-only, automatic transmission-equipped 'drift' cars...

[bigbcraig]

... forget pickups

I wish there was something nowadays that wasn't a pickup or huge SUV that I could tow with. The added height and 'off road ability' just makes them less stable (so they're heavier per tow rating) and less fuel efficient.

There is a market for college kids who want cheap, small pickups. They're going to buy a used $1000 pickup.
Its sad but the only people really buying rangers were a few fleets. Huge used market and tiny new market. In 10-15 years, there will start to be a real shortage of small pickups but, frankly, by then someone will figure something out.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Europe has a way more urbanized population than North America. More people take the train there too. Doesn't apply here.

I know a few people that do off road their daily drivers. Not extreme stuff, maybe trails when they go camping or hunting (also not popular in Europe).

Plus I've never been talking about a huge ass pickup. Something sized like the Toyota mini-truck of the 80s. And the lack of logic applies to all cars. Even the FT86 is going to have a swarm of cosmetic-only, automatic transmission-equipped 'drift' cars...

Europe being more urbanized doesn't work. Even in rural/farm areas of Europe you don't see big trucks that often. Hell besides the typical farm machinery you tend to see people drive Transit based car.

Even in urban areas of the US; Chicago, NYC, Miami, LA, Atlanta, it still boggles my mind how many trucks you see in the urban environment. So that argument doesn't work. Do I see a purpose for a home builder, contractor, farmer, rancher to use a pickup. Sure. That is your main market share.

Why do you think the mini-trucks of the 80s and 90s died? Someone looking for fuel economy would just buy a Toyota or Honda car. Someone looking to move a lot of stuff or tow, would buy a full sized truck. It is stuck in between the two with no real purpose. Been there done that. What makes you think 2012 would be any different.