My letter made it into Car and Driver!

[Xenocide117]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

Scion's collective annual sales total less than Honda Fit sales in this country; it's rather pathetic.

To be fair, the Fit is GO.

[Linseal]

I wonder if 240z owners are pissed their cars are Datsuns and not Nissans. Or maybe they don't care because they own an awesome car that changed everything about affordable sports cars at the time. They way I see it. The FR-S is a modern day 240z. Personally.... I love Scions, I've driven them for 9 years. I've never really thought of them as anything other than Toyotas. Very rarely do I see a "riced out" Scion. "Riced out" Celicas and Supras are more common around here. And there are WAY more "riced out" Subarus than anything else. So this argument about not wanting to belong to that crowd blows my mind.

Anways, enjoy your cars people. Don't worry about the labels. Worry about how much fun you and others are having for 25k. In the end, THAT'S the community you belong to.

[luscious]

While I do agree that branding the car as a Scion was a major hit on the crackpipe for Toyota...I personally don't give a rats ass what badge is on it.

Then again...a Scion!??

Really!?!?

I can't help but ponder over the subject...

[ahausheer]

Who cares about a brand. What are you guys, graphic logo haters/fans? Fanatical about little stylized plastic bits and an orderly arrangement of specific letters?

That's like disliking a hot girl because of her name.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

No, more like "We demanded an awesome sports car and they gave us an awesome sports car - albeit a much watered-down version than the ones the rest of the world are getting!" Why not give the option to spend more money on a higher spec car? Well now, that just wouldn't make sense! The FR-S as it's configured is a fine car, don't get me wrong, but for those of us who wanted more equipment, we're forced to find a BRZ.

Apparently you didn't realize that it's not just about the badge. It's about Toyota's choice to try and save a dying brand. When, not if Scion gets the axe, I don't want to see the FR-S go out along with it, not unlike the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice went when GM cut the fat among their brands. Scion's collective annual sales total less than Honda Fit sales in this country; it's rather pathetic. Oh hell, just read Robinson's article. He puts it much more eloquently than I do.

While I don't care about the badge, I think bringing it over as a Toyota may have given us a lowered cost of the vehicle. Much like how the BRZ Premium doesn't maintain a very large price jump from the FRS, and if negotiations went well you would be under a grand more OTD. We could have had this as a base and possibly a higher trim model. Shave another 500-1000 off of the base and offer the high spec at the same cost as a BRZ Limited.

I highly doubt that if Scion is axed that the FRS would go with it. They'd just stop producing the parts with the Scion badge, and we'd get similar to ROW LHD Toyota vehicles. If I recall correctly, the Kappa platform was expensive to manufacture and actually was costing GM money for each car sold. GM could, if it wanted to, revisit those models on the Alpha platform now. After all, they're sort of bringing the G8 back as the SS. The FRS doesn't lose money, as far as I know, and sells way too well for Toyota NA to let it leave our shores.

[MVJ1975]

Yes, GM lost $10K on every Kappa sold.

[FRiSson]

Some people are highly brand-sensitive. They grew up in an era where from high school, or maybe earlier, what you wore and carried defined who you were and who you could hang out with.

To me, that's a triumph of mature capitalism, a stage where major corporate players cannot create genuine wants (refrigeration, air conditioning, mobility) since most of them are already met. Instead, in order to continue to grow and prosper, marketers focus on creating imaginary needs, such as brand x vs brand y, "coolness", social positioning, or desire to appear "rebellious".

Toyota is one of the largest brands in the world. The company stands for excellence in manufacturing and a broad range of products. Worldwide, the company is best known for 3 products, its family-sized Camry, the smaller Corolla, and its durable trucks. Its "sporty" legacy is a very tiny part of its overall image. Scion, is a sub-brand of Toyota. It hasn't been very successful as a stand-alone brand. Essentially its stands for very little except as an economy division of Toyota. It has a good reputation for quality vehicles - but that is about it.

The idea that some people get so worked up about a nominal sub-brand is foreign to me. But my generation really didn't car about brands. It didn't define us to any significant extent. We liked cars, but were happy to drive whatever was available. It was just great to have a vehicle that was reliable. When Honda Civics started getting popular they were great, something special. But, not because the brand had prestige, but because how fun they were to drive, and how cheap and reliable they were. They doubled the fun of driving vs the crap that U.S. automakers were putting out at that time. When you saw another Honda driver, you recognized a kindred spirit, someone who was having as much fun as you were.

What I really like about the FR-S is that we drivers, and a few knowledgeable people, know how good this car is, how well engineered and fun it is for the money. If the public doesn't recognize that, I don't care. On the flip side, if someone shows up with a 60K full-spec BMW I might be impressed by the car, but exactly zero of that rubs off on the owner. There is no transfer of quality or prestige. That only comes with knowing the person.

If the FR-S were a Toyota-branded car, it would make no difference to me. The same goes for Subaru. Except for its WRX, it is just another budget car maker (with worse than average dealers).

I think we are seeing the twilight of the super-sports car. The Bugatti, the all-automatic Ferrari, the Maserati, Lexus F, are not real cars. They are almost grotesquely over-performing platforms for monster engines, sophisticated interventional electronics and luxury goods. The relationship with the driver is nearly as distant as the occupant of a chauffeur-driven limousine. They are approaching what the Stealth Bomber is, a plane that can only be flown by a computer.

That's what makes the FR-S/BRZ/GT86 so exciting. It may be both the return, and perhaps the last example of, a car that is almost wholly controlled by its driver, and has almost none of the living-room luxuries and cosseting that drivers have become accustomed to. In a way, that makes it the anti-supercar. That feeling is to my mind, only enhanced by the Scion badge that essentially means nothing more than "Basic Toyota."

[whaap]

^ Well said.

[Linseal]

Originally Posted by FRiSson

Some people are highly brand-sensitive. They grew up in an era where from high school, or maybe earlier, what you wore and carried defined who you were and who you could hang out with.

To me, that's a triumph of mature capitalism, a stage where major corporate players cannot create genuine wants (refrigeration, air conditioning, mobility) since most of them are already met. Instead, in order to continue to grow and prosper, marketers focus on creating imaginary needs, such as brand x vs brand y, "coolness", social positioning, or desire to appear "rebellious".

Toyota is one of the largest brands in the world. The company stands for excellence in manufacturing and a broad range of products. Worldwide, the company is best known for 3 products, its family-sized Camry, the smaller Corolla, and its durable trucks. Its "sporty" legacy is a very tiny part of its overall image. Scion, is a sub-brand of Toyota. It hasn't been very successful as a stand-alone brand. Essentially its stands for very little except as an economy division of Toyota. It has a good reputation for quality vehicles - but that is about it.

The idea that some people get so worked up about a nominal sub-brand is foreign to me. But my generation really didn't car about brands. It didn't define us to any significant extent. We liked cars, but were happy to drive whatever was available. It was just great to have a vehicle that was reliable. When Honda Civics started getting popular they were great, something special. But, not because the brand had prestige, but because how fun they were to drive, and how cheap and reliable they were. They doubled the fun of driving vs the crap that U.S. automakers were putting out at that time. When you saw another Honda driver, you recognized a kindred spirit, someone who was having as much fun as you were.

What I really like about the FR-S is that we drivers, and a few knowledgeable people, know how good this car is, how well engineered and fun it is for the money. If the public doesn't recognize that, I don't care. On the flip side, if someone shows up with a 60K full-spec BMW I might be impressed by the car, but exactly zero of that rubs off on the owner. There is no transfer of quality or prestige. That only comes with knowing the person.

If the FR-S were a Toyota-branded car, it would make no difference to me. The same goes for Subaru. Except for its WRX, it is just another budget car maker (with worse than average dealers).

I think we are seeing the twilight of the super-sports car. The Bugatti, the all-automatic Ferrari, the Maserati, Lexus F, are not real cars. They are almost grotesquely over-performing platforms for monster engines, sophisticated interventional electronics and luxury goods. The relationship with the driver is nearly as distant as the occupant of a chauffeur-driven limousine. They are approaching what the Stealth Bomber is, a plane that can only be flown by a computer.

That's what makes the FR-S/BRZ/GT86 so exciting. It may be both the return, and perhaps the last example of, a car that is almost wholly controlled by its driver, and has almost none of the living-room luxuries and cosseting that drivers have become accustomed to. In a way, that makes it the anti-supercar. That feeling is to my mind, only enhanced by the Scion badge that essentially means nothing more than "Basic Toyota."

HERE HERE!

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Linseal

I wonder if 240z owners are pissed their cars are Datsuns and not Nissans. Or maybe they don't care because they own an awesome car that changed everything about affordable sports cars at the time. They way I see it. The FR-S is a modern day 240z.

That's a pretty poor analogy. Nissans were sold as Datsuns nearly everywhere except Japan, until the early 80's. In the 1960's, barely anyone knew what a Nissan or Datsun was. It's not like they had the internet then to show them what they were missing back in Japan. The 240Z changed Datsun's image completely and made them a force on the world stage. The FR-S is a modern day 240Z from a car-to-car comparison, but it's not quite the same type of game-changer. But yes, given the choice I would've rather had my car be a Fairlady Z, because that sounds way cooler than plain ol' 240Z.

[ftc~brz]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

^^ See, that's the biggest part of my problem with their decision. I wouldn't necessarily have cared so much about the badge, if Scion didn't offer "mono-spec" cars. I.E. if you could get all the features on the 86 GT Limited/BRZ Limited in the FR-S, I'd swallow my pride and still get it. Buuuuut you can't, so if you want the goodies you gotta get the Subie.

We were a scion household 05 & 08 tc. My 08 had breaking issues and the lack of customer service I received pointed my new car search tward the subie. I also felt the few differences between frs/brz were worth the few extra thousand. Once I saw my premium next to a frs I was happy with my decision for sure.
Congrats on the write up! Your feelings are shared throughout the community

[ks22732]

last I checked under my FR-S' hood, it said subaru all over the place anyway. don't give two shits what the title says. it's super fun to drive, that was the main selling point for me.

[whaap]

Originally Posted by ks22732

last I checked under my FR-S' hood, it said subaru all over the place anyway. don't give two shits what the title says. it's super fun to drive, that was the main selling point for me.

Yeah, it's really a kick to be driving a little semi-exotic with a Scion badge. I love it!

[Celicadude]

Originally Posted by Linseal

I wonder if 240z owners are pissed their cars are Datsuns and not Nissans. Or maybe they don't care because they own an awesome car that changed everything about affordable sports cars at the time. They way I see it. The FR-S is a modern day 240z.

Considering the 240sx didnt have the SR20 from it's silvia breathren, I think the analogy is worse than the frs example. Everyone I've known thats had a 240 won't argue that the silvia was a better car, and in fact swapped the motor out for the SR20. At least all 3 iterations of the FT-86 have the same motor. But I can see where people were put off with the scion thing, myself included. Its not because of a brand (although Scion's brand appeal really doesnt appeal to me, but i can see how it does to a younger crowd), but that all the things I wanted in the gt-86 were not even made available to this market. Subaru has all the things I want but i think it was a dumb decision on toyota's part to leave out a whole group of potential customers by building so much hype around this car and then using a watered down version of it to try and save a dying business line. All the while there's a completely viable option/competitor with subaru. And like Turbo said, if/when Scion goes away so does the FRS. It just doesn't make much sense. But with your 240 example, I can gurantee enthusiast were blown they weren't getting the same car everyone else was getting.