BRZ vs FRS - The Debate

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by itisthumper

I'll never probably never think AT is nearly as engaging as MT but that's just me. The purpose of the car is giving the driver the maximum amount of control with providing great experience; I think paddle shifters feel too artificial and I never use them when driving autos.

If you prefer the AT though, good for you. It's your car and it shouldnt matter how others feel. This will allow others to get the MT. I believe they are still producing more AT than MT.

yeah the AT isnt involving, but i do use the manual shifters every day every time, my last car was manual, my next car manual

Originally Posted by dem00n

Then why am i having more fun? What full potential is there for a car like this? Your talking mere milliseconds. This is a simple machine made to do well on corners and holding drifts, not go on into corners breaking from 200MPH like a race car. I think you guys are simply over looking the whole driving experience. Its not simply how many techniques you use to achieve your shifts but more so on it all feels and connects, which this car has on either transmissions. We cannot simply base the whole driving experience on engaging and disengaging a clutch, that like saying sex was no fun because you didn't do oral.

"extract the full potential of a true "driver's car"" I'm sorry but am i the only one here seeing that as pure bullshit?
What full potential? What drivers car? What makes this a drivers car? I could call a Honda Accord a drivers car if i bought it in MT, thats what your turning it off as.

What about all the cars without a clutch, all those modern automated transmission, are they not driver cars?

manual is the only way to be directly connect to the car 100%, i drive an AT FRS but i also used to own a 6speed beforehand, there isnt anything like a 6 pluck racing clutch and a high revving NA motor... plus i never got sleepy in my manual car, i get sleepy in the FRS. The only thing i like about the auto more than the manual, two words, road head.... dont have to make her stop to shift gears hated that in my last car... lol NSFW


ohh yeah and dual clutch automatics in high end cars are so they post better times, plus high hp automatics are easier to predict when your trying to set lap times, ever shift too early in a 500hp car exiting a corner? sometimes that tail likes to just step out when you shift a little bit too slow and the tires brake loose when you drop the clutch... auto is just safer in high hp applications.... why do you thing F1 cars have them, faster and safer period

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by dem00n

What about all the cars without a clutch, all those modern automated transmission, are they not driver cars?

In a word, yes.

The global shift towards computer driven traction control for speed and automatic transmissions of any variety(torque converter, wet plate, DSG, DCT, PDK, SMG) is directly responsible for the decline of the driver's car. They take more and more away from what is the essence of a drivers car, you behind the wheel working the controls based on feedback from the car.

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

In a word, yes.

The global shift towards computer driven traction control for speed and automatic transmissions of any variety(torque converter, wet plate, DSG, DCT, PDK, SMG) is directly responsible for the decline of the driver's car. They take more and more away from what is the essence of a drivers car, you behind the wheel working the controls based on feedback from the car.

That is your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it. However the reality is the 99% of the drivers out there are NOT race drivers and those assists allow those among the 99% that decide to explore their limits to do so with a higher margin for error and safety. Since most of those can be turned off for purists like yourself, I fail to see the problem.

Even MotoGP riders are now using ABS and TCS. Tell them that they are not as good of a rider for using it and see what happens. Tell the guys in JGTC, Touring Car, GT, or F1 that they are not feeling the "essence" of their cars for using electronic assists. I would love to hear their responses.

As far as us, mere mortals driving road-faring sports cars go, arguing which provides a better "driver's experience" is really up to the driver isn't it? For the last 20 years, all I have ever owned were RWD, manual sports cars and after driving both the 6MT and 6AT FR-Ss, I opted for the 6AT. I consider myself an above-average driver on the track and I still autocross every month here in Huntsville where I could not be happier with that 6AT in the FR-S.

I would say my "driver's experience" is just fine.

Scott

[wbradley]

Both have their pros and cons:

Scion+ lower entry price
+ nice 5 Axis body kit available
+ unique front face and headlights resemblance to LFA
+ unique dash covering colour and tach as well as "T" motif everywhere
+ sporty seat look in fabric
-less extras

Subaru + more extras available
+ unique front face and headlights
+ unique dash covering colour and tach
+ alternate sporty seat look in fabric

I like the exterior look of the Scion better as well as the dash colour. However I could go either way, and gotten the Subaru and the onky regret would have been preferring the Scion front face and black dash. I used the difference in the $ to buy a few extras including the 5:AD kit.

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

That is your opinion and you are certainly welcome to it. However the reality is the 99% of the drivers out there are NOT race drivers and those assists allow those among the 99% that decide to explore their limits to do so with a higher margin for error and safety. Since most of those can be turned off for purists like yourself, I fail to see the problem.

You need to reread what I wrote. I said traction control that drives for you, much like the GTR. I was talking about automated performance, not slippery surface safety during daily driving.

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

Even MotoGP riders are now using ABS and TCS. Tell them that they are not as good of a rider for using it and see what happens. Tell the guys in JGTC, Touring Car, GT, or F1 that they are not feeling the "essence" of their cars for using electronic assists. I would love to hear their responses.

You also need to keep up with motorsports a bit better. Traction control was banned from F1 a few years ago as it was seen as something that was ruining the sport.

[jarviz]

Originally Posted by gmookher

BRZ has more features and better value
how can you not buy a car that lets you adjust how far away the head light beams are in real time from the drivers seat via a dial???

'cause it's more money for something that not everybody wants or needs

[SupraLove]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

Sorry to be the stickler for details but his name is Hawkings.

Scott

Actually, it's just Hawking. No "S" at all in the name.

[jarviz]

this thread is like asking a parent which kid they like best

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

You need to reread what I wrote. I said traction control that drives for you, much like the GTR. I was talking about automated performance, not slippery surface safety during daily driving.

I did read what you wrote. I made no mention of "slippery surface" in what I wrote so I would appreciate it if you didn't read into things that aren't there.

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

You also need to keep up with motorsports a bit better. Traction control was banned from F1 a few years ago as it was seen as something that was ruining the sport.

Thank you for pointing this out. I was not aware of that.

That said however, it didn't make the rest of my statement less true and since you didn't address the point I made here, I'm going to assume that you have no counter-point to offer.

Look, you're a purist. I get it and I have no issue with your stance on automatic transmissions or electronic driving assists. My issue is the verbal assault that is launched by a vocal minority of purists such as yourself that feel the need to criticize others that don't feel the same way about driving or what a "driver" is as you do.

Simply loving cars just isn't enough for some people.

Scott

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by SupraLove

Actually, it's just Hawking. No "S" at all in the name.

Oh crap!

Thanks for catching that!

Scott

[TheSt|G]

Originally Posted by naikaidriver

Look, you're a purist. I get it and I have no issue with your stance on automatic transmissions or electronic driving assists. My issue is the verbal assault that is launched by a vocal minority of purists such as yourself that feel the need to criticize others that don't feel the same way about driving or what a "driver" is as you do.

Scott

The reason we are vocal is because we are getting squeezed out by auto makers focusing on the magazine numbers game.

The BRZ/FRS/86 is the first full production car in years that I have wanted. It's a giant middle finger to the horsepower war, weight gains, and computer driven performance of the modern sports car.

Further, to say that an automatic gives less connection to the car isn't a criticism, it's just the way it is. You are pushing a button and getting a result instead of manually doing the process yourself. It's not debatable. Whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant, but to think it offers the same level of connection is just silly.

[itisthumper]

Everybody should carefully consider transmission type (as with color, trim, make) when buying this car, whether it is AT or MT. When I visited my local Scion last week, some guy had returned his whiteout AT and wants a MT now and the salesman told me lost a lot of money. It's worth the wait to get exactly what you want.

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

Whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant...

This little statement proves my point perfectly about people like you.

Thank you and I have nothing more to say on this.

Scott

[SupraLove]

Originally Posted by TheSt|G

The reason we are vocal is because we are getting squeezed out by auto makers focusing on the magazine numbers game.

The BRZ/FRS/86 is the first full production car in years that I have wanted. It's a giant middle finger to the horsepower war, weight gains, and computer driven performance of the modern sports car.

Further, to say that an automatic gives less connection to the car isn't a criticism, it's just the way it is. You are pushing a button and getting a result instead of manually doing the process yourself. It's not debatable. Whether or not you enjoy it is irrelevant, but to think it offers the same level of connection is just silly.

If I could thank this a million times, I would.