Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

*SIGH*

you cant have your cake and eat it too... the money they saved on the engine, perhaps went into the suspension, steering, and handling of the car? what if it comes standard with awesomely tuned bilsteins? can you maybe see that they had to cut budget in some areas to really nail it in others and stay within budget?

you're too hung up on power. you cant see the bigger picture. you say you can, but your posts and the perspective that it paints, says otherwise. i get that you WANT it to be a certain way. but if its not, you say its a failure. and thats where i disagree. your standards are WAAAAAAY too high. if it were that easy to have such a car, have you ever considered why other manufacturers havent developed a 20-25k turbo rwd lightweight sports coupe?

My standards are no higher for it than for other cars costing similar prices. And, contrary to popular belief, awesomely tuned bilsteins aren't any more expensive than poorly tuned ones, and there's nothing special about the suspension set-up at all. It's a standard Subaru set-up. And the competition already has bilsteins, so that argument doesn't really work.

I am not willing to pay extra money just to have the engineers do the job they're supposed to do in the first place. If they can't make a light, RWD car handle and feel good then they probably are in the wrong career - it's certainly not something worth paying extra for because it's a given. You're buying into the "omg its going to feel so amazing" hype.

And I'm not hung up on power! Jeez! I'm not asking for 300hp for christs sake. The horsepower figure is the only one that I'm worried about because the rest of the car looks stellar. A 2.0L engine making 200hp isn't going to have much room to grow in the aftermarket. I'd be perfectly happy with 200hp if the car was boosted because then I could easily up the power.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Are you saying the RX-8 didn't have RWD? The ITR was a sweet ride for 25k and I thnk the S2000 was an impressive little coupe when it debuted its 240hp 2.0l NA. I wouldn't call it a rip off, but it was definitely overpriced IMO.

No he's saying that the RX-8 was up against other RWD cars and the FT-86's closest competitors are all FWD/AWD.

And that doesn't mean anything to me because there is no reason to pay more for a RWD layout. The only reason it's not more common is because of packaging issues for small cars which need to maximize interior space. (RWD also takes a small hit in terms of fuel economy because of the one extra directional change the power has to take on it's way from the crank to the wheels)

[madfast]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Are you saying the RX-8 didn't have RWD? The ITR was a sweet ride for 25k and I thnk the S2000 was an impressive little coupe when it debuted its 240hp 2.0l NA. I wouldn't call it a rip off, but it was definitely overpriced IMO.

no, im saying the RX-8 went up against other RWD cars in its segment, namely the 350Z. the FT goes up against Si, MS6, GTi, etc. all FWD. its no comparison, if you want RWD then FT it is. its a HUGE selling point.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

And that doesn't mean anything to me because there is no reason to pay more for a RWD layout. The only reason it's not more common is because of packaging issues for small cars which need to maximize interior space. (RWD also takes a small hit in terms of fuel economy because of the one extra directional change the power has to take on it's way from the crank to the wheels)

you're going about it all wrong. you approach it as if toyota/subaru are supposed to absorb the extra cost of making this car. not gonna happen. the extra cost is going to be passed on to the buyer. theres no escaping that. they are a business and they will charge more if it cost more to make...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

My standards are no higher for it than for other cars costing similar prices. And, contrary to popular belief, awesomely tuned bilsteins aren't any more expensive than poorly tuned ones, and there's nothing special about the suspension set-up at all. It's a standard Subaru set-up. And the competition already has bilsteins, so that argument doesn't really work.

I am not willing to pay extra money just to have the engineers do the job they're supposed to do in the first place. If they can't make a light, RWD car handle and feel good then they probably are in the wrong career - it's certainly not something worth paying extra for because it's a given. You're buying into the "omg its going to feel so amazing" hype.

And I'm not hung up on power! Jeez! I'm not asking for 300hp for christs sake. The horsepower figure is the only one that I'm worried about because the rest of the car looks stellar. A 2.0L engine making 200hp isn't going to have much room to grow in the aftermarket. I'd be perfectly happy with 200hp if the car was boosted because then I could easily up the power.

well we really dont know about the suspension at this point. im just saying they may be spending more money developing the suspension than a "regular" car. who knows. and im gonna ignore that you just said suspension tuning was free and easy...

i understand that you want it to be tunable, but no manufacturer makes cars with that in mind. its made to be as is. how can you fault them for that? disappointed? sure. fault them? no.

also as others have said, the best thing for this car would not be a turbo but a supercharger. no lag, keep the throttle response and tq curve, etc. if this car wasnt coming out, i would already have a NC miata with a cosworth sc.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

well we really dont know about the suspension at this point. im just saying they may be spending more money developing the suspension than a "regular" car. who knows. and im gonna ignore that you just said suspension tuning was free and easy...

i understand that you want it to be tunable, but no manufacturer makes cars with that in mind. its made to be as is. how can you fault them for that? disappointed? sure. fault them? no.

That is not true AT ALL. AT ALL. GAHHHH. The un-truth burns mine eyes.

And I didn't say suspension tuning was free and easy. I DID say that it happens regardless.

Do you really think it's easier to tune a car to have a silky smooth ride than an awesome handling one? Cuz it's not.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

And I didn't say suspension tuning was free and easy. I DID say that it happens regardless.

Do you really think it's easier to tune a car to have a silky smooth ride than an awesome handling one? Cuz it's not.

of course it happens, but how fine do they tune it? and its all about balance. and that takes time and money. money that gets passed on to the customer one way or another...

[Dimman]

What I don't get is these people that can afford more expensive cars are expecting this thing to be built to their expectations, just because they can afford a more expensive car.

It doesn't work that way, guys. If you can afford an LS460, that doesn't mean you can expect Toyota to offer leather and radar cruise control in a Yaris just for you. Sheesh...

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dimman

What I don't get is these people that can afford more expensive cars are expecting this thing to be built to their expectations, just because they can afford a more expensive car.

It doesn't work that way, guys. If you can afford an LS460, that doesn't mean you can expect Toyota to offer leather and radar cruise control in a Yaris just for you. Sheesh...

I don't get these people either. Talking about Boss Mustangs, Camaro ZL1s, BMW 1M, and Caymans. Just dumbfounds many of us.

This car is a mid $20k car. That is it. It is really creating its own niche of cars that no one else has gone after for several years now. This is not meant to compete against the MS3, GTI or SI. Sure it might price wise, but this car is meant to be a 2+2 hardtop version of the Miata. Many that autoX and only have 1 car that they also use for DD will love this car. Also those that can't afford to have a weekend car but want to start autoX and tracking will love this car. If this car doesn't meet your demands than walk along and pick up a Mustang, Camaro, SI, WRX, MS3...etc.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Dimman

What I don't get is these people that can afford more expensive cars are expecting this thing to be built to their expectations, just because they can afford a more expensive car.

It doesn't work that way, guys. If you can afford an LS460, that doesn't mean you can expect Toyota to offer leather and radar cruise control in a Yaris just for you. Sheesh...

I expect it to be built to my expectations for cars in the same market segment. Simple as that. At no point...NO POINT, did I directly compare it to anything costing way more. Tranzformer added that part in and continues to purposely misinterpret things I say to fuel his fanboy rage.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Maxim

I expect it to be built to my expectations for cars in the same market segment. Simple as that. At no point...NO POINT, did I directly compare it to anything costing way more. Tranzformer added that part in.

You did when you mentioned the other cars you are considering buy and then start complaining that the FT86 doesn't have this and that and how it needs to have a turbo. This car is not competing with the other cars you are interested in as you said you could go out and buy "any other sporty car that was 50k or less." It just isn't. What was your point/reason for mentioning the Boss Mustang, 1M or Cayman then? To brag? Well done then.

[Maxim]

As an aside, does this board have an ignore function?

[Maxim]

Ahh! Found it.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I don't get these people either. Talking about Boss Mustangs, Camaro ZL1s, BMW 1M, and Caymans. Just dumbfounds many of us.

This car is a mid $20k car. That is it. It is really creating its own niche of cars that no one else has gone after for several years now. This is not meant to compete against the MS3, GTI or SI. Sure it might price wise, but this car is meant to be a 2+2 hardtop version of the Miata. Many that autoX and only have 1 car that they also use for DD will love this car. Also those that can't afford to have a weekend car but want to start autoX and tracking will love this car. If this car doesn't meet your demands than walk along and pick up a Mustang, Camaro, SI, WRX, MS3...etc.

The Cayman part came from Toyota (and Nissan) comparing their cars to it. But in Toyota's case people seem to equate 'handling benchmark' to 'FT86 will be a $20kish Cayman'. Not the same thing.

I think this car can be reasonably compared to the MS3, GTI and SI, as well as the Miata For the overall buyer pool's definition of 'sporty compact' anyways. Magazines will compare the Civic SI to this thing, I'm pretty sure. Could be an interesting comparo. The Miata vs FT86 hardly needs to be mentioned...

But a lot of us won't. All those other cars have been out for a while, and most of us on here have all had a chance to go for them instead. But we haven't.