Scion FR-S Cover Article in new Road and Track Magazine

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

People need to stop viewing RWD+Light as something that should cost extra.

THIS is why you just dont get it. RWD IS special... at this price point.

you speak highly of your GTi and the MS6. but guess what? both of those cars are kitted up version of grocery getters. so is the Si. and all 3 are FWD which right off the bat is fundamentally worse than RWD as a drivers car.

if you want lighweight and RWD you will have to pay extra, simply because it IS different. the miata is right there as well in price. its slow as heck, but you know what? who cares! it handles well and is fun. That's all that matters. do miata owners lose sleep every night because their car is slower than a GTi? hell no!

the bottomline is that all signs are pointing that this car WILL have Si level performance. but it also brings RWD driving dynamics, and supposedly great handling. THAT is what should matter to people interested in this car. NOT 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times and fucking Nring lap times... if that kinda car is not for you, then look elsewhere until there is real proof of a turbo option. like seriously. what do people really expect from a $20k+ car???

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

THIS is why you just dont get it. RWD IS special... at this price point.

you speak highly of your GTi and the MS6. but guess what? both of those cars are kitted up version of grocery getters. so is the Si. and all 3 are FWD which right off the bat is fundamentally worse than RWD as a drivers car.

if you want lighweight and RWD you will have to pay extra, simply because it IS different. the miata is right there as well in price. its slow as heck, but you know what? who cares! it handles well and is fun. That's all that matters. do miata owners lose sleep every night because their car is slower than a GTi? hell no!

the bottomline is that all signs are pointing that this car WILL have Si level performance. but it also brings RWD driving dynamics, and supposedly great handling. THAT is what SHOULD matter to people interested in this car. NO 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times and fucking Nring lap times... if that kinda car is not for you, then look elsewhere until there is real proof of a turbo option. like seriously. what do people really expect from a $20k+ car???

Nope. Wont pay extra for RWD. Certainly won't pay extra for lightness in a TINY car.

The fact that RWD is rare at this price point is only due to small cars switching to FWD because it eliminates the center driveline tunnel, freeing up a lot of interior space in otherwise small cars - and this price point is dominated by utilitarian vehicles, where space is more important than dynamics.

The Miata is a convertible, which adds cost, and also has no competition, so it is not competitively priced.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Nope. Wont pay extra for RWD. Certainly won't pay extra for lightness in a TINY car.

The fact that RWD is rare at this price point is only due to small cars switching to FWD because it eliminates the center driveline tunnel, freeing up a lot of interior space in otherwise small cars - and this price point is dominated by utilitarian vehicles, where space is more important than dynamics.

The Miata is a convertible, which adds cost, and also has no competition, so it is not competitively priced.

so you really think they can make a niche car and sell it at a regular price? i know you'd like to see it but lets get real here. the fact remains that this is an all new car with all new everything. it will NOT cost as much as a car whose chassis and main interior parts are shared with its more utilitarian version. the FT doesnt have a utilitarian version. and for it to exist to begin with, it will have to be priced higher. simple stuff. the fact that you dont want to pay extra for it is your own problem. but dont make that personal problem seem like its toyota/subaru's problem cuz it surely aint...

again. the miata is its own car. it will have to be priced higher than you think it should, to even exist. if it was a "special" version of a car that they already sell millions of, then i can see your point; BUT as it stands, that's simply not the case. and as such, the miata is not a "rip off" at its current price point. neither will the FT be. neither was the S2000 (35k for a 4 banger?), so on and so forth...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

so you really think they can make a niche car and sell it at a regular price? i know you'd like to see it but lets get real here. the fact remains that this is an all new car with all new everything. it will NOT cost as much as a car whose chassis and main interior parts are shared with its more utilitarian version. the FT doesnt have a utilitarian version. and for it to exist to begin with, it will have to be priced higher. simple stuff. the fact that you dont want to pay extra for it is your own problem. but dont make that personal problem seem like its toyota/subaru's problem cuz it surely aint...

again. the miata is its own car. it will have to be priced higher than you think it should, to even exist. if it was a "special" version of a car that they already sell millions of, then i can see your point; BUT as it stands, that's simply not the case. and as such, the miata is not a "rip off" at its current price point. neither will the FT be. neither was the S2000 (35k for a 4 banger?), so on and so forth...

S2000 = huge rip off.

And yes, Toyota will have to take a small hit on this car at the beginning, until the tooling and development is paid for. Additionally, it is not all new everything. The base frame is modified from a Subie chassis, the engine is a Subie engine, the transmission was already in existence, the interior will be from the parts-bin, etc.

The simple fact remains: It is ludicrous to sell this vehicle at prices where it will get killed in performance. RX-8 redux. So, it should either be priced even lower, or it should perform on par with other similarly priced performance cars. If Toyota can't make that happen, then believe me....it will definitely be their problem.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

S2000 = huge rip off.

And yes, Toyota will have to take a small hit on this car at the beginning, until the tooling and development is paid for. Additionally, it is not all new everything. The base frame is modified from a Subie chassis, the engine is a Subie engine, the transmission was already in existence, the interior will be from the parts-bin, etc.

The simple fact remains: It is ludicrous to sell this vehicle at prices where it will get killed in performance. RX-8 redux. So, it should either be priced even lower, or it should perform on par with other similarly priced performance cars. If Toyota can't make that happen, then believe me....it will definitely be their problem.

the s2000 was not a rip off. on paper yes. behind the wheel? no. and that statement really shows your perspective. seems like you care way too much about whats on paper. on that end, you'll never "win" because there will always be a "better" car, or "better" something...

it still takes time and money to adapt the subie chassis to this car. dont trivialize the process. the same with the engine. interior? nobody can say for certain at this point, but even if there is a lot of parts sharing, it's still all new. not a literal cut and paste of an existing dash/cluster/console. the tranny nobody knows for sure yet and again it may have to be adapted.

another RX-8? maybe. maybe not. time will tell. 2 things though. the RX-8 went against cars like the 350z. rwd vs rwd. the FT? has that RWD ace in the hole... and thats a BIG ace for an enthusiast... the next thing is styling. the RX-8 was attractive, but nothing very special vs its competition. but the FT, imo, is way more stylish than its competition. maybe even against cars worth way more. all subjective i know, but i think we can all agree its a stylish car... and style is a selling point...

[Kids Heart]

Originally Posted by Maxim

The simple fact remains: It is ludicrous to sell this vehicle at prices where it will get killed in performance. RX-8 redux. So, it should either be priced even lower, or it should perform on par with other similarly priced performance cars. If Toyota can't make that happen, then believe me....it will definitely be their problem.

Why would anyone argue against this?

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Kids Heart

Why would anyone argue against this?

because the FT is RWD and its competitors are almost all FWD.

RWD>FWD.

so while it may not be as fast as a MS6 for example. how many people crave a fun, great handling RWD sporty car? and are there enough to make this car a success?

see, its NOT exactly like the RX-8...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Kids Heart

Why would anyone argue against this?

People who like to burn money would, I guess?

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Disagreed on that, at least for the RX.

The RX should remain a 370z competitor. The vette has been steadily gaining in price and will further gain on the C7.

A 3 rotor, or a 1.6L would bump horsepower up to the 300+ level even without turbos. If the RX-7/9 actually happens (I have my doubts), a return to a 2 door and sub 3000lb weight along with either the 1.6L or a turbo would have me buying that car in an instant. I love rotaries. I'd have an RX-8 but the power is so low and there's no real aftermarket for it since it sells so poorly, especially the 2009+ S2 chassis, and intake/exhaust/porting has almost no effect on power because the Renesis is already in such a high state of tune.

You disagree abouth the rx8 or next rx7? I'm hoping the next gen Sup/RX fit snugly between the Vette and MustangGT/CamaroSS. Id love to see some special TRD Supra/Mazdaspeed RX7 that compete with the GTRs and Z06s. Id be pretty disapointed if the new RX was as fast as the 370z which int much of an improvemen over the last generation RX/supra. Id settle for nothing slower that current 5.0GTs/SS's.

Originally Posted by Maxim

Neither of which anybody should be willing to pay ANY extra money for, since there are no exotic materials being used to make the car. RWD is not a bonus feature, it's a drivetrain layout, and the car is tiny. It damn well better be light.



The Si is literally the bottom of the barrel, performance wise. The low cost performance car segment has become insanely competitive. If ANYBODY can think of a reason why this car should have Si performance, and not MS3 or GTI performance, they should speak up. Those vehicles are offered at a similar price.



Who said anything about a 2.5L turbo? A 2.5L N/A or a 2.0L turbo would be preferable. And the turbo piping and hardware to support the torque would not add much weight at all. It's 2xx ft/lbs of torque are not that much.

Additionally, it would certainly not get worse gas mileage. A turbo engine gets non-turbo mileage as long as you stay out of the boost. I AVERAGE 27.9 mpg in the city in my GTI - and most of that is in the city. If anything, it would get better gas mileage, as you wouldn't need to rev the snot out of it just to pass somebody.

The RX-8 was a failure. Offering a car that's only marginally lighter, has less power, and less usable space will also be a failure. Base price on an RX-8 is sitting right at ~26k and if you can actually FIND one on a dealer's lot you can walk away with it for more like 22-23k. Do you really think this car is going to cost much less than that?

I see absolutely no reason why a higher performance target should not be met for the same price. I would view this vehicle as a rip-off if it offered Si level performance for Si level money, because I view the Si as a rip off.

If the car is offered and is extremely competitive with other cheap performance cars, of course it will sell better than if it's among the slowest. That's a given.

People need to stop viewing RWD+Light as something that should cost extra. Neither are. This car is going to be a scion and it will not have a premium interior - it should AT LEAST be able to match a GTI in performance for the money.

Agreed. You're designing a small car, a bi-product of being small SHOULD be less weight. Shouldn't charge more for that. Now if they ever released a hardcore lightweight version, like the Evo MR, I could justify a small premium.

Originally Posted by Maxim

The simple fact remains: It is ludicrous to sell this vehicle at prices where it will get killed in performance. RX-8 redux. So, it should either be priced even lower, or it should perform on par with other similarly priced performance cars. If Toyota can't make that happen, then believe me....it will definitely be their problem.

Agreed again.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

the s2000 was not a rip off. on paper yes. behind the wheel? no. and that statement really shows your perspective. seems like you care way too much about whats on paper. on that end, you'll never "win" because there will always be a "better" car, or "better" something...

it still takes time and money to adapt the subie chassis to this car. dont trivialize the process. the same with the engine. interior? nobody can say for certain at this point, but even if there is a lot of parts sharing, it's still all new. not a literal cut and paste of an existing dash/cluster/console. the tranny nobody knows for sure yet and again it may have to be adapted.

another RX-8? maybe. maybe not. time will tell. 2 things though. the RX-8 went against cars like the 350z. rwd vs rwd. the FT? has that RWD ace in the hole... and thats a BIG ace for an enthusiast... the next thing is styling. the RX-8 was attractive, but nothing very special vs its competition. but the FT, imo, is way more stylish than its competition. maybe even against cars worth way more. all subjective i know, but i think we can all agree its a stylish car... and style is a selling point...

The general public does not care if it's rear wheel drive, because they are too stupid to tell the difference.

And yeah, the S2000 was a rip off. I've driven them, they're great cars. Worth the 38k that Honda was asking near the end of their run? Fuck no. High 20's.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

Agreed. You're designing a small car, a bi-product of being small SHOULD be less weight. Shouldn't charge more for that.

...until the crash test dummy dies after your tiny lightweight car is deemed a deathtrap...

[82mm 4g63]

Originally Posted by madfast

but the FT, imo, is way more stylish than its competition. maybe even against cars worth way more. all subjective i know, but i think we can all agree its a stylish car... and style is a selling point...

The FT concepts are gorgeous cars. The few parts not covered in camo, most noteably the lights, are fugly. I really hope they look even half as sexy as the concepts.

Originally Posted by madfast

...until the crash test dummy dies after your tiny lightweight car is deemed a deathtrap...

...light cars can't be safe?

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

...until the crash test dummy dies after your tiny lightweight car is deemed a deathtrap...

That's not how crash tests work. Small cars tend to have it easier, since the tests do not include crashes with larger cars. A car need only deal with dissipating it's OWN energy during crash testing.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

The general public does not care if it's rear wheel drive, because they are too stupid to tell the difference.

And yeah, the S2000 was a rip off. I've driven them, they're great cars. Worth the 38k that Honda was asking near the end of their run? Fuck no. High 20's.

yes, but they will care about the styling, mpg, and price. and the enthusiasts? they definitely care about RWD. so this car WILL attract buyers from all walks of life. the RX-8 was just a bad car made up of a bunch of compromises... the FT will obviously have compromises, but unlike the RX-8 it has a clear direction.

again. that's obviously your opinion and you have the right to have it. whats interesting is that it shows your perspective. in my experience, the S2000 is not known to be a "rip off" but rather, like the miata, its a prime example of how power isnt everything. people crap all over it because of its engine (4 cyl). but most people who've driven it, like it was meant to be driven, give it two thumbs up and understand what its all about.