FRS stands for "FUN but REALLY SLOW"

[regal]

Speaking Domestic (USA) DD cars .

The FRS is a "fast" car. Faster than any Civic or Integra made in the 90's that were "fast". Faster than any factory Miata made till 2010?

Faster than any factory RWD coupe weighing under 2800lbs since 98 , no has more HP than a factory 240sx.

I think the only true OEM RWD 2+2 coupe made thats was faster than this FRS/BRZ would be all the way back to the 89 M3 ? Is that right ?

(Note I don't consider Lotus or Arial, or the RX7 etc DD cars, they just aren't.)

Hell its damn close to an '87 5L fox Mustang and those were fast as hell.

Faster than the historic 58 corvette. Jesus.

So if you don't want to drive a tank, I mean muscle car, or an AWD 4 door. The FRS is as fast as it gets for a from the dealer <2800 lbs, 2+2 Coup, RWD, daily driver at least in the past 23 years.

I do wish it weighed 400 lbs less, but then again the chassis is a work of art.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by regal

Speaking Domestic (USA) DD cars .

The FRS is a "fast" car. Faster than any Civic or Integra made in the 90's that were "fast". Faster than any factory Miata made till 2010?

Faster than any factory RWD coupe weighing under 2800lbs since 98 , no has more HP than a factory 240sx.

I think the only true OEM RWD 2+2 coupe made thats was faster than this FRS/BRZ would be all the way back to the 89 M3 ? Is that right ?

(Note I don't consider Lotus or Arial, or the RX7 etc DD cars, they just aren't.)

Hell its damn close to an '87 5L fox Mustang and those were fast as hell.

Faster than the historic 58 corvette. Jesus.

So if you don't want to drive a tank, I mean muscle car, or an AWD 4 door. The FRS is as fast as it gets for a from the dealer <2800 lbs, 2+2 Coup, RWD, daily driver at least in the past 23 years.

I do wish it weighed 400 lbs less, but then again the chassis is a work of art.

i dont know if its faster than the fast integras. i dont know why you dont think the rx7 is a daily driver. when you put so many constraints on classing a car you can come to any conclusion you want. its like you picked the bare minimum weight to consider daily driveable the exact weight of the twins so anything heavier is excluded from your sample because of your arbitrary weight constraints and anything lighter is excluded because it isnt a daily driver in your opinion. the bottom line is that the car is slow by todays standards. thats not a bad thing because most of the cars of today suck.

[regal]

I wasn't trying to start a pissing match but there is no way I agree that this car is slow. Todays standards really aren't that impressive as far as "fast".

Lets look at a Maxima. Is it fast? On interstates its fast, sure. But no way in hell I would drive it fast on a curved road or when I need to make a quick lane change, so really its usefullness as "fast" is very minimal to me. A heavy FWD high powered car is just plain dangerous to me.

I guess I just can't say this FR-S is slow at all. The torque dip does make you think its slow sometimes, but you just have to trust the car and rev right thru that.

I used to drive a true daily driver 12 second '86 Buick, it got 27 mpg on the highway, drove it everyday, reliable as hell with the factory forged crank bullet proof Buick V6. I did have a few upgrades to get to get under 13 seconds but it wasn't a whole lot of money. It was fast when I lived in the rural midwest where every road was straight and level. Really pretty much faster than about anything even compared to todays "standards" for a DD affordable car. The RWD/Frame/Turbo/etc gave me 0-60 around 4 seconds.

Now I live in Pennsyltucky where there are no straight roads, there are a lot of hills. I sold the Buick not long after I moved here.

Honestly this FRS is faster here than that 12 second Buick.

The RX7 was an awesome car, but a daily driver? We can agree to disagree.

I guess the point I am making is this car is not slow on the roads. Its fast. If you are used to driving FWD or even heavy RWD the FR-S probably feels slow because you don't trust it yet.

[regal]

OK I'm at 785 miles on the odo so haven't really pushed this car, but this thread is bugging me.

I just jumped in and did some "real" driving (I live in the middle of no where hilly pennsyltucky, middle of the night.)

Here is the deal, the car is fast. But I see where the slow impression comes from.

At 5k up a hill the engine just doesn't have the torque to rev any further, its that torque dip. Its like the engine is frozen at 5k where most performance engines would just bend the needle past.

With this car you have to keep it between 5.5k and 7.5k to be fast. Its a narrow band, luckily the 6speed manual tranny is just plain incredible. To drive this car fast you have to trust the rev limiter and keep it reving as as high as you can. I believe that the rev limit is probably 500 rpm lower than it really needs to be.

If you are used to a powerful torque monster (turbo 4 cylinder, or modern V6) you will find this car to be slow because of the torque dip.

I understand the argument, but I think its a matter of understanding how to drive this unique car. Its not "slow".

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by regal

OK I'm at 785 miles on the odo so haven't really pushed this car, but this thread is bugging me.

I just jumped in and did some "real" driving (I live in the middle of no where hilly pennsyltucky, middle of the night.)

Here is the deal, the car is fast. But I see where the slow impression comes from.

At 5k up a hill the engine just doesn't have the torque to rev any further, its that torque dip. Its like the engine is frozen at 5k where most performance engines would just bend the needle past.

With this car you have to keep it between 5.5k and 7.5k to be fast. Its a narrow band, luckily the 6speed manual tranny is just plain incredible. To drive this car fast you have to trust the rev limiter and keep it reving as as high as you can. I believe that the rev limit is probably 500 rpm lower than it really needs to be.

If you are used to a powerful torque monster (turbo 4 cylinder, or modern V6) you will find this car to be slow because of the torque dip.

I understand the argument, but I think its a matter of understanding how to drive this unique car. Its not "slow".

what are you talking about? im pretty sure there is no torque dip at 5k rpm. you can talk about how the car feels and all but it just isnt fast in its stock form. we have already seen how these heavy fwd and awd cars will lap SOW faster than this thing and that is a low speed course. it is a very good car but fast is an objective term. by current performance standards the frs is not fast. people find this car slow because we live in a world where camrys have 270 plus hp and you can buy a mustang with 420 hp for 25k.

its not the end of the world. driving slow cars fast is where its at

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by regal

OK I'm at 785 miles on the odo so haven't really pushed this car, but this thread is bugging me.

I just jumped in and did some "real" driving (I live in the middle of no where hilly pennsyltucky, middle of the night.)

Here is the deal, the car is fast. But I see where the slow impression comes from.

At 5k up a hill the engine just doesn't have the torque to rev any further, its that torque dip. Its like the engine is frozen at 5k where most performance engines would just bend the needle past.

With this car you have to keep it between 5.5k and 7.5k to be fast. Its a narrow band, luckily the 6speed manual tranny is just plain incredible. To drive this car fast you have to trust the rev limiter and keep it reving as as high as you can. I believe that the rev limit is probably 500 rpm lower than it really needs to be.

If you are used to a powerful torque monster (turbo 4 cylinder, or modern V6) you will find this car to be slow because of the torque dip.

I understand the argument, but I think its a matter of understanding how to drive this unique car. Its not "slow".

That's not a great trait in an engine IMHO. I wish it was between 3.5k-7.5k instead. The torque dips between 3200-4700 rpms.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i dont know if its faster than the fast integras. i dont know why you dont think the rx7 is a daily driver. when you put so many constraints on classing a car you can come to any conclusion you want. its like you picked the bare minimum weight to consider daily driveable the exact weight of the twins so anything heavier is excluded from your sample because of your arbitrary weight constraints and anything lighter is excluded because it isnt a daily driver in your opinion. the bottom line is that the car is slow by todays standards. thats not a bad thing because most of the cars of today suck.

The FT86 has similar straight-line acceleration to the ITR (~2600 lbs, 195 HP, 130 lbf*ft) and is a bit faster than the GSR.

I agree with your general point (and the RX7 can be a daily driver, depending on how much trouble you're willing to go through).

Originally Posted by regal

At 5k up a hill the engine just doesn't have the torque to rev any further, its that torque dip. Its like the engine is frozen at 5k where most performance engines would just bend the needle past.

Please share with us which public road was so steep that you couldn't accelerate at 5k RPM.

[regal]

Originally Posted by fatoni

what are you talking about? im pretty sure there is no torque dip at 5k rpm. you can talk about how the car feels and all but it just isnt fast in its stock form. we have already seen how these heavy fwd and awd cars will lap SOW faster than this thing and that is a low speed course. it is a very good car but fast is an objective term. by current performance standards the frs is not fast. people find this car slow because we live in a world where camrys have 270 plus hp and you can buy a mustang with 420 hp for 25k.

its not the end of the world. driving slow cars fast is where its at

I think we are saying the same thing. I drove an 85 diesel Jetta pretty fast, on paper it was one of the slowest cars on earth but on the roads it was a lot faster than a GEO. So to me fast is still relative when you drive on the road. Some things really can't be measured. I guess it depends on how fast is defined.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

That's not a great trait in an engine IMHO. I wish it was between 3.5k-7.5k instead. The torque dips between 3200-4700 rpms.

Yes the torque dip is affecting the way I drive for sure. But it allows 2 different driving styles. Cruising at low RPM saving gas and being stable as hell.

For the other driving style just trust the rev limiter. Or I am sure sooner or later there will be an aftermarket flash and cam that makes it go away.

[e30kawi]

Originally Posted by regal

I drove an 85 diesel Jetta pretty fast, on paper it was one of the slowest cars on earth but on the roads it was a lot faster than a GEO. So to me fast is still relative when you drive on the road. Some things really can't be measured. I guess it depends on how fast is defined.

I had an 81 diesel rabbit. That thing felt fast inside, but yes by todays standards so slow, but it was like driving a pop can. So much fun

[sofrsnsokleen]

I was initially going to cross shop the fr-s and the gti. That ended as soon as I saw the fr-s in person. The gti is a nice car, practical, fun, but not a looker. The fr-s is hot as hell, not practical as far as storage, and a looker. The fr-s handles like a go kart, the gti handles like, a jetta.

Truth be told though, with the power increases coming in the next gti, I actually might consider trading in my fr-s for it.

[Demandred7]

Okay, break in is now complete. I think that if you think that this car is slow, you are on crack. Okay I won't be drag racing with the car, but, it does not take long to get up to extra-legal speeds and it is faster than many cars on the road. Not only that, but, the level of confidence that the car gives you, allows you to be faster than most cars on the road. This is one man's perspective. I haven't driven anything with more than 300 hp, but, honestly from a guy who has driven regular cars, I feel connected to the road again. It is exceedingly easy to run rings around most cars on the road. Period.

[Coheed]

True, when minivans pass you the car feels slow.

My '88 ford festiva had a 5-speed swap and it felt fast because you were rowing the gears quickly and WOT for long periods. It was awesome, and very fun, even though it was a turd. A canoe has better composure than the festiva. It smoked so bad, it looked like it was on fire. I'd get free car washes from firemen trying to put the fire out. The poster child for shitbox.

But the car was fun. I sold my 500whp sentra to buy a BRZ. The BRZ is slow. But that's subjective. I like the sort of speed that is able to be emphasized without being desensitizing. 100mph is fast, but in the super sentra it hits those speeds so quickly that its just a number on the speedo. Not hard to hit 150mph on the freeway onramp, and that's scary because it doesn't "sink in". If I actually did something like that and got caught by the cops I would be in handcuffs in 2 seconds. But that car makes it too easy to see triple digits.

So, in order to make speed matter again... in order to bring back my sensibility, I am begging to go slow. I want to hit the limits of the car BEFORE I'm entering speeds that are certain to be fatal should something go awry.

"faster and faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." Nah, I'd rather be the guy feeling like he's going fast. Banging gears, chirping tires, hearing the engine whine with the brap brap of the limiter at the top of every gear... then getting passed by the caravan getting on the onramp. But hey, at least I'll be having fun.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Coheed

True, when minivans pass you the car feels slow.

You know, everyone always says oh a minivan is faster. But are any minivans actually faster? A Porsche Cayenne S/Turbo does not count for the record.

I'm well acquainted with a Honda Pilot, and those share drivetrain with Odyssey and have pretty much the same curb weight, and they are definitely not as fast as any slow sporty car. I've driven a new Dodge Grand Caravan with 3.8L engine that's got 300hp or something, and it's not capable of outgunning my slow MR2 either (in particular, its front wheels spin at medium throttle pressure, there's no way it puts down any of its power off the line). I'll admit that I was pretty impressed by the power though, not bad at all for hauling over 2 tons.

[Coheed]

If you had a autotragic BRZ/FRS then the minivan would probably win. The manual moves quicker to 60mph because the clutch gets dumped at 4000rpm. I'm not necessarily saying the coupe is slower to a large extent, but there are a lot of people haulers out there that put a hurt on it.

But like I said. Going fast isn't my goal with this car. I'll build it faster, surely. But I'm not going to be searching for my next 10 second car.