Subaru Coupe (version of FR-S/FT-86) Spotted Inside and Out! + New Interior Pic

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by madfast

the gen coupe is NOT doing that well.

For the amount being made and imported in the ports in US they are doing good. The Gen Coupe is doing just great.. it's the Gen Sedan, get the facts straight. I know all you can see gathering info online is the Combined Gen Coupe/Sedan sales. The Genesis Sedan 3.8 and 4.6 is doing horrible, not the Coupes. My buddy is at Hyundai and anything above 30k gets hard to sell for the manufacturer, he can unload a track 3.8v6 for less than 29k an Rspec for 22.4k all day.

It would be the same way if Scion sold a 30k+ car Sedan or car for that matter at it's current point in life.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Again, agreed on all points (except Hyundai, I think they're doing great!). A 25k RWD Scion is competing in an arena that is highly competitive.

If the only thing this car has going for it is that it feels nice to drive, it's going to be a complete flop, just like the RX-8.

I am honestly worried about the business case for the car. With two versions of the same vehicle available, neither with class competitive power, the car isn't going to do well in the marketplace even if it handles better than anything else on the market, simply because the average consumer never even explores the limits of their car.

I agree.

I must of not fully expressed what I meant to say about Hyundai and Scion deal. Although they are up there now, and they are doing great, better than Scion is. They didn't say lets sell the GenCoupe for RX8 pricetag because it has brembos, turbo and whatnot. They actually went for the Miatas knees in price. Scion needs to do the same and not hide behind Toyota and Subaru as their damn crutch. Give a little get a lot in return, sell by volume not by price at first.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

^ where do sports cars begin and end and where is the defining line between a sports coupe and a sports car?

I can name a dozen or more recent, sporty 2 door compact cars.

What about Hot Hatches and sports sedans? i can name a few there too..

A sports coupe is a 2+2.
A hot hatch is a 3/5 door.
A sport sedan is a 4 door.
A sports car is a 2 seater.

The sports car has the smallest amount of compromise in terms of performance, but it's also the least practical, essentially mandating that it's a second car. A sports coupe is a 2+2, slightly more practical than a pure sports car...they can be FWD or RWD, but the success of the Hot Hatch segment is slowly forcing them to become RWD to differentiate them from their equally fast, more practical Hot Hatch competitors.

The distinctions are pretty cut and dried....automotive marketing might want you to think that you can have a 4 door sports car, or the even more ridiculously titled 4 door coupe (oxymoron anyone?), but you can't.

And a "GT" (grand touring) car is either an overweight sports car or a sports coupe.

:happy0180:

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

Also, I'd just like to note something: I know that a lot of people are comparing the FT-86 to much more expensive cars (370Z, TTS, Cayman, etc), but I see this car falling in around the MX-5 and RX-8 when it comes to performance as well as price. Don't expect any $25k Porsche killers anytime soon. You'll just be disappointed.

WHO is comparing this car to a TTS or Cayman?

The only reason the Cayman even gets mentioned in the same sentence (and seen in spy shots) with the FT-86 is because that's the car toyota has publicly said they are benchmarking for HANDLING.

There is a huge difference between benchmarking for handling and benchmarking for overall performance.

And yes no one on this forum, that's been here for more than a month, is expecting a $25k Porsche killer so I don't know who these "lots of people" you are referring to are but they sure aren't members here.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

For the amount being made and imported in the ports in US they are doing good. The Gen Coupe is doing just great.. it's the Gen Sedan, get the facts straight. I know all you can see gathering info online is the Combined Gen Coupe/Sedan sales. The Genesis Sedan 3.8 and 4.6 is doing horrible, not the Coupes. My buddy is at Hyundai and anything above 30k gets hard to sell for the manufacturer, he can unload a track 3.8v6 for less than 29k an Rspec for 22.4k all day.

It would be the same way if Scion sold a 30k+ car Sedan or car for that matter at it's current point in life.

ok, ask him what the average days on sales floor is for the entire nation. just because HE can sell them in YOUR area, doesnt mean somebody in the middle of cornfield america can...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

if ALL cars arent selling well then it isnt the segment thats doing well. but rather its the individual cars themselves...

I....uh....

Yeah. No. Just no.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Madfast and Sabastian I totally understand what you're both saying. But as a person not really hurting for money and really comfortable. I just can't grasp having to paying 25k for a 190hp Scion with no creature comforts and a 3yr warranty...

Mazda... the Miata and the RX series have come very far and a long way to reach where they are at today, lots of racing history and currently.. soo yes they can sell for that, Scion and Hyundai can't, it's not proven and concrete yet. They are asking consumers to invest in this car, the idea, well when you look at that you really don't want to, for the price...


All I'm saying is the Scion version has to start less than a Miata.

I think you're dwelling too much on the badge. When I came up with my prediction I asked myself two things: 1) What does this car offer with respect to the rest of the market? and more importantly, 2) What have we heard from Toyota/Scion/Subaru so far? The answers to both of these questions lead me to the ~$24k to $25k number. Also, I was speaking more with respect to the Subaru version of the car. I could see the Scion version coming in around $1k less, but I also expect it to lack features that will likely come standard on the Subaru.

As far as the Mazda comparison, I really see no reason for this car to be cheaper than the Miata, especially as it will be offering roughly 30 more horsepower, a limited-slip diff, and a 6-speed as standard.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

I....uh....

Yeah. No. Just no.

if the segment itself is doing well then ALL of the cars in the segment should do well. if 2 cars out of the entire segment are the ONLY cars doing well, then its not the segment that is doing well, rather its just those 2 individual cars that are doing well.

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by zigzagz94

WHO is comparing this car to a TTS or Cayman?

The only reason the Cayman even gets mentioned in the same sentence (and seen in spy shots) with the FT-86 is because that's the car toyota has publicly said they are benchmarking for HANDLING.

There is a huge difference between benchmarking for handling and benchmarking for overall performance.

And yes no one on this forum, that's been here for more than a month, is expecting a $25k Porsche killer so I don't know who these "lots of people" you are referring to are but they sure aren't members here.

Ok, maybe not "lots of people," maybe just a few deluded individuals...
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...?t=1439&page=2

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

if the segment itself is doing well then all of the cars in the segment should sell well. if 2 cars out of the entire segment are the only cars selling well, then its not the segment that is doing well, rather its those 2 individual cars that are doing well.

You're working off a false pretense here.....nothing I can really do to change your mind. The Gen Coupe is selling fine, in fact it's outselling the sedan, which is strange. The Accord Coupe and Altima Coupe are also selling fine. The G37 Coupe...also doing well. Obviously, the Challenger, Mustang and Camaro are doing great. 2 door models of the BMW 1 & 3...also healthy.

The fact that the Mustang and Camaro are selling EXTREMELY well does not mean that the rest of the vehicles in the segment are flops. The sales figures are all perfectly respectable, and the number of cars in the segment has grown.

The simple fact is, there are more people buying 2+2's right now than ever, be it Mustang, Gen Coupe, Camaro, whatever. Not all cars in the segment are going to have the same sales figures...but the steady sales of essentially all models, along with the increase in NUMBER of models = segment growth.

Now, if we were seeing a sharp DROP in sales figures for everything other than Camaro and Mustang, I'd agree with you, because that would mean that there were no new 2+2 buyers, only people switching to Mustang/Camaro.

But that's not what's happening. So...yeah.

[zigzagz94]

Originally Posted by Sabastian

Ok, maybe not "lots of people," maybe just a few deluded individuals...
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...?t=1439&page=2

Yeah, Levi just joined last month and hasn't fully accepted reality yet.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

It's very much alive. the hybrid system and the 1.6x are already developed.. and the chassis,new miata, is already built. It's coming but not in time to wreak havoc on this car's release.

Hmm. Not really interested in it if it's a hybrid. Extra weight and complexity are not the friends of performance....or price. I've seen rumors about a hybrid, but also about electric supercharging or an increase in displacement to 2.0L.

Really, I want to love the FR-S/SubCoupe but it's going to be SO hard for it to succeed. With an even lighter Miata coming out in a similar time frame, and my steadily increasing income....a proven product with a rabid aftermarket and tons of track events starts to look pretty good, even if I have to buy a compact pick-up for the winter and hauling things....

I suppose there's always the chance that the FR-S will be a break-out hit like the Miata was...the new compact sporty car that's inexpensive, a riot to drive, and great on a track.......but such things are so hit-or-miss. The FR-S is going to need to be lightning in a bottle if it wants to really carve out a spot for itself...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

You're working off a false pretense here.....nothing I can really do to change your mind. The Gen Coupe is selling fine, in fact it's outselling the sedan, which is strange. The Accord Coupe and Altima Coupe are also selling fine. The G37 Coupe...also doing well. Obviously, the Challenger, Mustang and Camaro are doing great. 2 door models of the BMW 1 & 3...also healthy.

The fact that the Mustang and Camaro are selling EXTREMELY well does not mean that the rest of the vehicles in the segment are flops. The sales figures are all perfectly respectable, and the number of cars in the segment has grown.

The simple fact is, there are more people buying 2+2's right now than ever, be it Mustang, Gen Coupe, Camaro, whatever. Not all cars in the segment are going to have the same sales figures...but the steady sales of essentially all models, along with the increase in NUMBER of models = segment growth.

Now, if we were seeing a sharp DROP in sales figures for everything other than Camaro and Mustang, I'd agree with you, because that would mean that there were no new 2+2 buyers, only people switching to Mustang/Camaro.

But that's not what's happening. So...yeah.

this sounds like a nice theory but i need to see cold hard numbers. just saying they're selling well without evidence is useless. manufacturers list sales as a total so its hard to find out sedan vs coupe sales. intuitively sedans should sell more, how much more is the question...

also "selling well" needs to be defined. does it mean % of total car sales of the company? or industry average?

whatever. its a matter of interpretation...

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Hmm. Not really interested in it if it's a hybrid. Extra weight and complexity are not the friends of performance....or price. I've seen rumors about a hybrid, but also about electric supercharging or an increase in displacement to 2.0L.

Really, I want to love the FR-S/SubCoupe but it's going to be SO hard for it to succeed. With an even lighter Miata coming out in a similar time frame, and my steadily increasing income....a proven product with a rabid aftermarket and tons of track events starts to look pretty good, even if I have to buy a compact pick-up for the winter and hauling things....

I suppose there's always the chance that the FR-S will be a break-out hit like the Miata was...the new compact sporty car that's inexpensive, a riot to drive, and great on a track.......but such things are so hit-or-miss. The FR-S is going to need to be lightning in a bottle if it wants to really carve out a spot for itself...

civic si is a hit. why cant this car be one? expectations maybe? like people dont expect a civic to be fast/sporty so 200 hp all of sudden sounds great. but this car looks faster than it really is and people get all disappointed with 200hp?