Subaru Coupe (version of FR-S/FT-86) Spotted Inside and Out! + New Interior Pic

[xantonin]

What's up with the holy war between Subaru and Toyota fan boys?

It's made by both companies, quit splitting hairs.

So what if it's made in X factory? So what if parts are from X car? So what if X parts are researched by X company?

Get over yourselves. Fact is this car wouldn't exist if you took either of the two parties away from the equation.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by xantonin

What's up with the holy war between Subaru and Toyota fan boys?

It's made by both companies, quit splitting hairs.

So what if it's made in X factory? So what if parts are from X car? So what if X parts are researched by X company?

Get over yourselves. Fact is this car wouldn't exist if you took either of the two parties away from the equation.

I think most of the animosity is coming from the fact that Toyota so completely abandoned the sporty car category that they had to get outside help from a much smaller company IOT build a new one - and yet they're trying to sell it as the spiritual successor to one of their old models.

There's some cognitive dissonance there and it's makin' peeps a little testy, especially fans of Toyota motorsports.

Makes me happy that I have absolutely no brand loyalty whatsoever. Every product a company releases should be judged in two ways: On ONLY it's own merit (references to past greatness are nothing but marketing fluff), and against it's closest competitors.

Closest competitors in this case: Sporty RWD 2+2s. That puts the FR-S up against some incredibly stiff competition: V-6 Mustang, V-6 Camaro, Genesis Coupe, RX-8, and Subaru's version of the same vehicle.

Regardless of whether it will perform LIKE those vehicles (IE, it's much lighter weight and will be less powerful), that is the market segment that it is in...vehicle layout and price will ensure that those vehicles are cross shopped.


(and you are absolutely right, this vehicle would never have been made if Toyota and Subaru had not cooperated)

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Makes me happy that I have absolutely no brand loyalty whatsoever. Every product a company releases should be judged in two ways: On ONLY it's own merit (references to past greatness are nothing but marketing fluff), and against it's closest competitors.

The thing is, brand image/reputation is often (but not always) an approximate indicator of the vehicle's styling direction, characteristic and merit. Toyota's reputation is reliable appliance. Honda's old reputation is reliability + fun, and the new reputation is fugly + reliable. Mazda's reputation is zoom zoom sporty. Subaru's is quirky AWD. Even as an enthusiast, I've reached a point in my life where I simply don't want to waste a good chunk of my time and effort on products that I know would most likely be inferior.

Closest competitors in this case: Sporty RWD 2+2s. That puts the FR-S up against some incredibly stiff competition: V-6 Mustang, V-6 Camaro, Genesis Coupe, RX-8, and Subaru's version of the same vehicle.

Regardless of whether it will perform LIKE those vehicles (IE, it's much lighter weight and will be less powerful), that is the market segment that it is in...vehicle layout and price will ensure that those vehicles are cross shopped.

You say the "sporty RWD 2+2 market segment" here, Maxim, but do shoppers realistically cross-shop between these?

The Stang, Camaro, and to a lesser extent, the Geneis Coupe shopper would probably cross shop. I suspect they'd also look at the Z car as well. (Although I am not entirely sure if the Z is a 2+2). These cars are similar because they are all power cars of sorts. They are big and bold and gets a commanding presence.

The RX8 has always been an oddball because it is very much a finesse car instead of a big powerful brute. It dances instead of pounds. It's more fluid instead of commanding. It loves to play at its screaming 9k redline instead of brutalizing the driver with its big fat torque curve. (And I'm pretty sure the RX8 is being discontinued really soon...)

But what about the FRS / FT86? In some ways, it is similar to the RX8. But I also see it sharing many characteristics of the current Miata -- it's slightly bigger but also more powerful. Lightness is supposed to be a key selling point for both. Of course, the Miata is a convertible and the FRS / FT86 is a fixed roof, but I suspect a segment of the audience will cross-shop between the two.

Other than the RX8 and Miata, I don't really see any other car in the current market that falls into a similar category as the FRS / FT86.

[Spaceywilly]

I've never considered buying a GT coupe (mustang et al), but I am seriously considering buying this. I am more concerned with a great driving car than just setting fast lap times. I think the most fun I've ever had on 4 wheels has been in go-karts, and those barely top 50mph. I'm hoping this car will give me the go kart feeling in something that I can drive to work every day. That's my speech, thanks for listening.

[Fly Guy]

^ Right on!

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Maxim

I think most of the animosity is coming from the fact that Toyota so completely abandoned the sporty car category that they had to get outside help from a much smaller company IOT build a new one - and yet they're trying to sell it as the spiritual successor to one of their old models.

Please change your wording. Toyota didn't HAVE to do anything, they DECIDED to. Look at the LFA for instance, it is (arguably) the best car to ever come out of Japan. Do you think Toyota needed help with that? The only company (AFAIK) they enlisted to help was Yamaha - for the engine's heads.

The FT is a joint effort by Toyota and Subaru (though it seems the project was finally green-lighted by Toyota, who owns ~16% of FHI, IIRC). It is a project to deliver a cheap car, and the best way to do that is to share out the costs between two companies. Toyota doesn't need Subaru, and nor does Subaru need Toyota, but they decided to work together to both make a profit.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Please change your wording. Toyota didn't HAVE to do anything, they DECIDED to. Look at the LFA for instance, it is (arguably) the best car to ever come out of Japan. Do you think Toyota needed help with that? The only company (AFAIK) they enlisted to help was Yamaha - for the engine's heads.

The FT is a joint effort by Toyota and Subaru (though it seems the project was finally green-lighted by Toyota, who owns ~16% of FHI, IIRC). It is a project to deliver a cheap car, and the best way to do that is to share out the costs between two companies. Toyota doesn't need Subaru, and nor does Subaru need Toyota, but they decided to work together to both make a profit.

Nah, they definitely HAD to. Not because they weren't capable, engineering wise. That wasn't what I was getting at. Any modern car manufacturer can engineer a good sports car - the suspension, brake, transmission and differential (the most important parts of a car!) are all outsourced to companies who specialize in it.

The issue wasn't whether Toyota had the knowledge or expertise to do it....of course they did. It's not like Toyota trains and educates their own engineers based on a different set of physics than everybody else. They hire people from the same sources as every other manufacturer. That's precisely why I have no brand loyalty. Brands are an artificial construct, and they change images all the time.

The issue was that Toyota didn't have any capacity to produce a small rear-wheel drive car. They had no suitable chassis to use as a basis, because they'd been out of the sporty car game for so long. That massively increases the cost of development and probably would have required them to make a whole new plant.

But Subaru has been working hard at lightening their cars, to make up for the inherent weight penalty that their AWD system incurs over competitors. They also are in a growth phase, meaning they've been enlarging their production capacity. The FT-86's chassis is a highly modified and shortened version of the Legacy's. Sales don't increase instantly with production increases, which means Subaru has some unused build capacity.

Viola! Use the extra capacity to produce a vehicle that rides on a development of an existing platform, which reduces cost. Partner with Toyota, who wants a car like that, to further reduce costs and receive both financing and probably quite a bit of development aid (Toyota has more access to wind tunnel testing, and more facilities with which to test a car). All of a sudden, Toyota gets back into the sports car game without a huge investment, Subaru gets an injection of funding and their own sports car, while simultaneously taking advantage of excess production capacity, which helps out their workers and results in all sorts of benefits.

Your example of the LFA kind of proves my point. Look how much more expensive that car is compared to direct competitors from other companies. It cost Toyota a fortune to develop it because they had to do the whole thing from scratch with no real experience to draw on. And it isn't dominating, it's just competitive. Because of the budgetary concerns, Toyota simply could not have done that with the FT-86....it's a low priced car.

[Nambo]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

I think the most fun I've ever had on 4 wheels has been in go-karts, and those barely top 50mph. I'm hoping this car will give me the go kart feeling in something that I can drive to work every day. That's my speech, thanks for listening.

You could get a Suzuki Swift Sport for that go kart feeling :P

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Maxim

I think most of the animosity is coming from the fact that Toyota so completely abandoned the sporty car category that they had to get outside help from a much smaller company IOT build a new one - and yet they're trying to sell it as the spiritual successor to one of their old models.

There's some cognitive dissonance there and it's makin' peeps a little testy, especially fans of Toyota motorsports.

This is it.. AND because of this spiritual successor BS, today's targeted market and lame excuse for a comeback on Toyota's part. Is why the industry wont get a proper fast, reliable AND great handling 2+2 FR sports car.. UNLESS you want to wait 2 years for a turbo or spend $50k+ or buy used 996 Turbo, because there will be this one huge group of guys that have to impede the process of a possible mid $25-30k balanced 260-300hp car, JUST because they think a rehash of the AE86 with 180hp is the end all be all, makes no damn sense, the fact Toyota/Scion has a major input on the cars performance output is the biggest setback by far, because Subaru doesn't hold back and they shouldn't have to it's their damn engine. Here's to Subaru listening to Toyota about performance.

Almost forgot, SURE we have the Genesis, RX8, 350/370, Miata. These cars are overweight, underpowered, not balanced, not 2+2, not entirely reliable, too much money, lacking in style, now I'm not saying all these cons are for each I'm just grouping things and you choose which car gets what. This car should not have any of these on paper EXCEPT being underpowered.. so why cut yourself short of that. Lets stop trying to make it like the old car with new world tweaks and make a more robust automobile while materials and labor costs are still relatively low.


Another thing I'm tired of the LFA crap too, not too impressed, I'd take a C6 ZR1 or GT3 RS4.0 or GT2 911 any day for a third of the cost of one producing the same performance.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...de-a-sales-dud
"But it took Lexus 10 full years to reach this point, and a budget that would likely amount to the full purchase price of the entire organizations of either Ferrari or Lamborghini. And for all its aspects of technical advancement, it lags noticeably in others…on measures of power, torque, top speed, and acceleration, it’s a full generation behind the top tier of supercars."

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Viola! Use the extra capacity to produce a vehicle that rides on a development of an existing platform, which reduces cost. Partner with Toyota, who wants a car like that, to further reduce costs and receive both financing and probably quite a bit of development aid (Toyota has more access to wind tunnel testing, and more facilities with which to test a car). All of a sudden, Toyota gets back into the sports car game without a huge investment, Subaru gets an injection of funding and their own sports car, while simultaneously taking advantage of excess production capacity, which helps out their workers and results in all sorts of benefits.

Your example of the LFA kind of proves my point. Look how much more expensive that car is compared to direct competitors from other companies. It cost Toyota a fortune to develop it because they had to do the whole thing from scratch with no real experience to draw on. And it isn't dominating, it's just competitive. Because of the budgetary concerns, Toyota simply could not have done that with the FT-86....it's a low priced car.

You forgot to mention Subaru could possibly walk away with the DI technology and it could possibly can get it's hands on Toyota's Hybrid system.. just like Toyota can possibly get their AWD system during this partnership.

Also because of this partnership turbo performance should be relatively cheap from FHI for this car.. So I don't know why everyone would think it would hike the price up much, a WRX is more of a car, equipped and featured only being $27.9k.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Traum

You say the "sporty RWD 2+2 market segment" here, Maxim, but do shoppers realistically cross-shop between these?

The Stang, Camaro, and to a lesser extent, the Geneis Coupe shopper would probably cross shop. I suspect they'd also look at the Z car as well. (Although I am not entirely sure if the Z is a 2+2). These cars are similar because they are all power cars of sorts. They are big and bold and gets a commanding presence.

The RX8 has always been an oddball because it is very much a finesse car instead of a big powerful brute. It dances instead of pounds. It's more fluid instead of commanding. It loves to play at its screaming 9k redline instead of brutalizing the driver with its big fat torque curve. (And I'm pretty sure the RX8 is being discontinued really soon...)

But what about the FRS / FT86? In some ways, it is similar to the RX8. But I also see it sharing many characteristics of the current Miata -- it's slightly bigger but also more powerful. Lightness is supposed to be a key selling point for both. Of course, the Miata is a convertible and the FRS / FT86 is a fixed roof, but I suspect a segment of the audience will cross-shop between the two.

Other than the RX8 and Miata, I don't really see any other car in the current market that falls into a similar category as the FRS / FT86.

RX-9 will be a 2+2, look similar to the ft86, and it's as small and lightweight as a miata and fr-s, having 280+hp 1.6L rotary. Should they make the ft86 the middle child? Hold back because there is nothing out there like it currently? Sounds stupid from a consumers POV especially after waiting for so long.

Some buyers will just buy it for looks, some will buy it because of the ae86 hype, some will buy it because they actually like it, then you have the cross shoppers who like it somewhat but will want to hold out for a better version if they don't let there emotions get involved with the car or make excuses of how they could make the car like it should be from factory, which I find myself doing at times.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Some buyers will just buy it for looks, some will buy it because of the ae86 hype, some will buy it because they actually like it, then you have the cross shoppers who like it somewhat but will want to hold out for a better version if they don't let there emotions get involved with the car or make excuses of how they could make the car like it should be from factory, which I find myself doing at times.

but MOST will buy it for its price...

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

This is it.. AND because of this spiritual successor BS, today's targeted market and lame excuse for a comeback on Toyota's part. Is why the industry wont get a proper fast, reliable AND great handling 2+2 FR sports car.. UNLESS you want to wait 2 years for a turbo or spend $50k+ or buy used 996 Turbo, because there will be this one huge group of guys that have to impede the process of a possible mid $25-30k balanced 260-300hp car, JUST because they think a rehash of the AE86 with 180hp is the end all be all, makes no damn sense, the fact Toyota/Scion has a major input on the cars performance output is the biggest setback by far, because Subaru doesn't hold back and they shouldn't have to it's their damn engine. Here's to Subaru listening to Toyota about performance. :bonk

again, you overlook the fact that a sportscar is a niche car, and as you go up in price, the prospective buyer pool goes down, way down. i wouldnt be surprised if it was exponential. you throw around a 5-10k price difference as if it was nothing. to you maybe, but to most people, they wont pay for a higher priced, higher performance car.

the sportscar market right now is down. and its traditionally been a niche market anyways. unless of course you're talking about cars like porsche and ferrari, they will be around forever. tons of new millionaires popping up all over the world (china) and they want german and italian supercars. but a 30k japanese sportscar? thats a hard sell man...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

This is it.. AND because of this spiritual successor BS, today's targeted market and lame excuse for a comeback on Toyota's part. Is why the industry wont get a proper fast, reliable AND great handling 2+2 FR sports car.. UNLESS you want to wait 2 years for a turbo or spend $50k+ or buy used 996 Turbo, because there will be this one huge group of guys that have to impede the process of a possible mid $25-30k balanced 260-300hp car, JUST because they think a rehash of the AE86 with 180hp is the end all be all, makes no damn sense, the fact Toyota/Scion has a major input on the cars performance output is the biggest setback by far, because Subaru doesn't hold back and they shouldn't have to it's their damn engine. Here's to Subaru listening to Toyota about performance.

Almost forgot, SURE we have the Genesis, RX8, 350/370, Miata. These cars are overweight, underpowered, not balanced, not 2+2, not entirely reliable, too much money, lacking in style, now I'm not saying all these cons are for each I'm just grouping things and you choose which car gets what. This car should not have any of these on paper EXCEPT being underpowered.. so why cut yourself short of that. Lets stop trying to make it like the old car with new world tweaks and make a more robust automobile while materials and labor costs are still relatively low.


Another thing I'm tired of the LFA crap too, not too impressed, I'd take a C6 ZR1 or GT3 RS4.0 or GT2 911 any day for a third of the cost of one producing the same performance.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...de-a-sales-dud
"But it took Lexus 10 full years to reach this point, and a budget that would likely amount to the full purchase price of the entire organizations of either Ferrari or Lamborghini. And for all its aspects of technical advancement, it lags noticeably in others…on measures of power, torque, top speed, and acceleration, it’s a full generation behind the top tier of supercars."

Agreed on all points. I don't buy into hype or nostalgia. There's ONE form of automotive hype that I buy into and that is motorsports trickle-down. Cars that are released by a manufacturer so that they can compete in a motorsport (STI, BOSS, the old EVOs, Audi Quattro, z06/zr-1 etc) invariably rock HARD.

I also do not place any auto manufacturer up on a pedestal. They all screw up from time to time and they all have run-away hits too. Toyota's Supra and the rally Celica come to mind, as do the Z/28, STi, BOSS, Miata, and Viper. Those are all very different vehicles but hits in their respective "genre."

And really, I challenge anybody to make a business case for making a spiritual successor to a cult car. The AE86 is a cult car. Not that many people know what it is, it wasn't a run-away success like the original Mustang. It's naive to think that Toyota wants to repeat that. Hell no! They want to have a break-out hit on their hands, a hardtop alternative to the Miata.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by madfast

but MOST will buy it for its price...



again, you overlook the fact that a sportscar is a niche car, and as you go up in price, the prospective buyer pool goes down, way down. i wouldnt be surprised if it was exponential. you throw around a 5-10k price difference as if it was nothing. to you maybe, but to most people, they wont pay for a higher priced, higher performance car.

the sportscar market right now is down. and its traditionally been a niche market anyways. unless of course you're talking about cars like porsche and ferrari, they will be around forever. tons of new millionaires popping up all over the world (china) and they want german and italian supercars. but a 30k japanese sportscar? thats a hard sell man...

Which is why the FR-S isn't a sports car. It's a sports coupe...and that segment hasn't been hotter since the 80s. Practical enough to justify to your wife (you better believe those rear seats will accept child seats!).

The sports coupe segment has EXPLODED in the last 5 years.