Report: Subaru Coupe STI Model Possible, But Without Turbo

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Exactly...standard STi package minus the big power upgrade because of an N/A engine.

Body Aero, sportier exhaust, upgraded interior trim, stiffer suspension, misc. underhood upgrades. There will be a power difference between a standard 216a and the STi version, but it'll probably be very minor.

To put it in perspective, if we use a very conservative weight figure for the 216a at 2800lbs, even with just 250hp the car has a better p/w ratio than the WRX STi. Along with its lower CoG, and overall better balance, the 216a would end up being the better sports car of the two models. I honestly can't see Subaru upstaging its flagship sports car with a "red-headed stepchild" in the group: the RWD newcomer.

So lets say within the upcoming years, would a turbo off-set the "balance" between the 216a vs the STI/WRX? The price between 216a (if kept around 20-25k) vs the base WRX model 25k isn't much of a significance compared RWD and AWD wouldn't it?

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by Giccin

So lets say within the upcoming years, would a turbo off-set the "balance" between the 216a vs the STI/WRX? The price between 216a (if kept around 20-25k) vs the base WRX model 25k isn't much of a significance compared RWD and AWD wouldn't it?

Honestly it could go either way, mainly because we don't know Subaru's plans for the soon-to-be independent WRX line. They could offer both STi models as "equals", with different tastes: RWD vs. AWD. That's entirely possible as well I suppose. As for the first model of the 216a? If Subaru says there will be an STi model without force induction, then that's probably exactly what will happen. It might be until the second generation of this car before you see it (FI).

On the flip side, when the WRX goes independent they could 'upgrade' the base WRX into more of a middle model sports car, with its STi variant being the 'top of the line'. So in a sense, It would be 216a (low $20k), 216a STi (mid-upper $20k), WRX (low $30k), STi (mid-upper $30k).

The second option makes more sense to me...the 216a would compete with other sports car's that fit its segments, and the WRX would be completely free (Thanks to not being pigeonholed by the Impreza platform anymore) to become a full-fledged sports car platform, competing in sales with the 370z, higher grade Mustangs/Camaro's, future RX-7 /Supra (if released), etc.

It's always a better choice for overall sales to not have car's 'clip' each other in the sales markets, even if there are not-so-subtle differences between the two.

[madfast]

sportscars dont sell very well. besides the mustang and camaro, they are a niche car. are you saying subaru is now going to make 4 of them?

and will the WRX line be "independent" like the GT-R went independent and have a different chassis? or just "independent" in name only? it makes no sense imo to make so many sportscars that are bound to be niche cars. i can see subaru making the WRX its own car by separating it from the impreza name, but i cant see them investing in making a new car altogether. new engine? probably... new chassis? probably not...

the 2012 impreza is now an econocar with a small fuel efficient engine. the WRX can be separated from the impreza in name and keep its sporty street cred. also how are the CAFE laws structured? does making the WRX a different car and not a trim of the impreza help the average mpg?

imo subaru isnt making a new sporty WRX line. rather they are downgrading the impreza to fuel sipping econocar and dont want that to affect the WRX name. thats how i see it. why would subaru make more cars that already dont sell extremely well? but there is impetus to create a more fuel efficient compact car...

[Giccin]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Honestly it could go either way, mainly because we don't know Subaru's plans for the soon-to-be independent WRX line. They could offer both STi models as "equals", with different tastes: RWD vs. AWD. That's entirely possible as well I suppose. As for the first model of the 216a? If Subaru says there will be an STi model without force induction, then that's probably exactly what will happen. It might be until the second generation of this car before you see it (FI).

On the flip side, when the WRX goes independent they could 'upgrade' the base WRX into more of a middle model sports car, with its STi variant being the 'top of the line'. So in a sense, It would be 216a (low $20k), 216a STi (mid-upper $20k), WRX (low $30k), STi (mid-upper $30k).

The second option makes more sense to me...the 216a would compete with other sports car's that fit its segments, and the WRX would be completely free (Thanks to not being pigeonholed by the Impreza platform anymore) to become a full-fledged sports car platform, competing in sales with the 370z, higher grade Mustangs/Camaro's, future RX-7 /Supra (if released), etc.

It's always a better choice for overall sales to not have car's 'clip' each other in the sales markets, even if there are not-so-subtle differences between the two.

Would be interesting to see. 216a STi doesn't sound bad at all. Notttttt oneeeeee bit.

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by madfast

sportscars dont sell very well. besides the mustang and camaro, they are a niche car. are you saying subaru is going to make 4 of them?

and will the WRX line be "independent" like the GT-R went independent and have a different chassis? or just a name change "independent"? it makes no sense imo to make so many sportscars. i can see subaru making the WRX its own car by separating it from the impreza name, but i cant see them investing in making a new car altogether.

the 2012 impreza is now an econocar with a small fuel efficient engine. the WRX can be separated from the impreza in name and keep its sporty street cred. the sti will be a better version of the wrx.

The WRX is being removed from the Impreza lineup, something that has hindered both the Impreza and the WRX (mainly the WRX). By doing so the car will get its own dedicated platform, or at least, a shared platform meant for a sports car.

Obviously the STi moniker still implies an upgraded version of the same car. You'd have two sports cars, each with a base model, and each with a sport tuned model. This isn't exactly anything new.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

The WRX is being removed from the Impreza lineup, something that has hindered both the Impreza and the WRX (mainly the WRX). By doing so the car will get its own dedicated platform, or at least, a shared platform meant for a sports car.

Obviously the STi moniker still implies an upgraded version of the same car. You'd have two sports cars, each with a base model, and each with a sport tuned model. This isn't exactly anything new.

its still 4 different cars, to me a least. none of which are destined to sell like a mustang or camaro. and 3 of those will be turbo? CAFE laws mean anything to you?

and is the dedicated platform fact or rumor? it makes no sense to make a new 2012 impreza with a new engine, and then make a new WRX with a new engine... WRX's dont sell like crazy and they mess up the CAFE numbers. makes... no... sense...

but how about the ft86? makes perfect sense. small car, small engine, lightweight, NA, RWD mpg > AWD mpg, still sporty, looks great, joint venture, etc. etc. etc... the ft86 is the right car at this time. turbo 4 is akin to a V6.... aint no way in hell they gon put a V6 in the ft86 so dont even think about a turbo 4 either...

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

The WRX is being removed from the Impreza lineup, something that has hindered both the Impreza and the WRX (mainly the WRX). By doing so the car will get its own dedicated platform, or at least, a shared platform meant for a sports car.

Obviously the STi moniker still implies an upgraded version of the same car. You'd have two sports cars, each with a base model, and each with a sport tuned model. This isn't exactly anything new.

I've seen no evidence of that. Subaru's removal of the WRX from the Impreza line looks to be purely a marketing move. They've already split it away from the Impreza on their website, grouping it as it's own model.

I've seen NO evidence of separate platform development at all. The WRX community seems to have come to the same conclusion (i've been researching )...it's a change in name only. The car will still be Impreza based, but that fact will not be referenced at all by Subaru. They're doing it to try and get away from the view of the WRX/STi as a gussied up compact (which it is...but oh so gloriously gussied up!)

[chulooz]

Its not too hard to make predictions on what an STI variant would entail, look at other STI vehicles. The turbo and drivetrain seem to be the only big questions but suspension, brakes, interior, and aesthetics are sure to be modified... if they even come out with an early model STI. Id rather them wait to launch that.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by madfast

its still 4 different cars, to me a least. none of which are destined to sell like a mustang or camaro. and 3 of those will be turbo? CAFE laws mean anything to you?

and is the dedicated platform fact or rumor? it makes no sense to make a new 2012 impreza with a new engine, and then make a new WRX with a new engine... WRX's dont sell like crazy and they mess up the CAFE numbers. makes... no... sense...

but how about the ft86? makes perfect sense. small car, small engine, lightweight, NA, RWD mpg > AWD mpg, still sporty, looks great, joint venture, etc. etc. etc... the ft86 is the right car at this time. turbo 4 is akin to a V6.... aint no way in hell they gon put a V6 in the ft86 so dont even think about a turbo 4 either...

Er I think you're mistaken about the CAFE system. It's a weighted average of some sort (forgot how it's weighted sorry). Clearly Toyota selling an LFA which gets like 17 mpg or whatever isn't going to bring their fleet average down much at all since there are so few LFAs sold. Thus the fact that the WRX doesn't sell well means it will not mess up the fleet average fuel economy figures.

And above all that, engine development is supposed to be moving along nicely. We haven't seen the new WRX motor yet, but there is a lot of potential improvement seeing how poor subaru fuel economy has been in the past (can't break 30mpg with a low displacement 4 cylinder engine? come on...). To me the whole FT joint venture seems to be a way for Subaru to get some tips on engines from Toyota, which makes fantastic engines. In addition to all of this if they can get a valvetronic/valvematic/vvel system going in the near future that would help a crapton. Notice how the BMW N55 engine gets basically the same fuel economy as the naturally aspirated one (between the 328 and 335 models). Poor fuel economy from a turbo mainly comes from the pumping loss through the throttle. For a smaller turbo the maximum efficiency is easily higher at full throttle, but if they decrease compression too much to prevent knock then that could eventually lower efficiency.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Er I think you're mistaken about the CAFE system. It's a weighted average of some sort (forgot how it's weighted sorry). Clearly Toyota selling an LFA which gets like 17 mpg or whatever isn't going to bring their fleet average down much at all since there are so few LFAs sold. Thus the fact that the WRX doesn't sell well means it will not mess up the fleet average fuel economy figures.

even if it doesnt affect their average too much, why would they make more slow selling models that dont get good fuel economy? it would still bring down the average vs not having these gas guzzling models at all, no?

[serialk11r]

I mean it's all economics right? They have the slow selling models because they want to capture a certain market or bring people into the brand. If it's low volume it has very low impact on their fuel economy, which isn't going to be a problem unless they're right on the edge. Even then I hear the government is letting companies buy credits or something if they don't hit the requirement. Besides I feel like the new WRX won't be as big of a gas guzzler, for the reasons I mentioned. Anyways, they think it will make money, so they're doing it. If you don't, then that's what you think and that's fine, but they have a lot on the line and this is the call they're making.

[phenoyz]

Originally Posted by Dark

Scion TRD or Subaru STi? Pick and choose.

Both

[NemesisPrime909]

Originally Posted by phenoyz

Both

especially if the 216a sti looks like this

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

especially if the 216a sti looks like this

Where did that come from!?!?!?