The Smart Money: FR-S Vs Cayman S Comparison by Car and Driver

[chantaiman51]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

OK now take that one step further. Using your $1700/mo figure, let's say your monthly expenses are:

$2500 (mortgage + property tax prorated)
$1700 (CS payment + insurance + gas + maintenance)
$2000 (other expenses)
$2000 (savings/investment)
----------------
$8200 take-home needed (post-tax)

Fair break-down? If that's your income requirement for "affording" the CS, then I'm proof you're wrong. I clear that requirement and then some and still opted for the FR-S because the CS wasn't worth the additional cost to me. The CS is a nice car, but no way is it worth 3x an FR-S. I'd rather buy the FR-S and invest the rest of the money elsewhere, which I am.

Obviously you're a Porsche owner and I'm sure you're proud of the brand, but you come across as being arrogant/snobbish when you make the assumption that because someone chooses not to buy a Porsche, they couldn't afford it. There are plenty of reasons not to buy a Porsche, even when one can easily afford to.

Yes, there are millions of reason not to like/buy a porsche or any luxury/sports car. I know lots of people makes $200k plus just drive a $30k-$50k car. All I am saying is if you need to comfortably afford a $75k car, you will need to have at least a $100k annual income. I don't see how hard is that to undedrstand.

As a car enthusiast, and I like to say it again, there is simply no way to quantify how a car worth three times the money than the another car. It's simply whether that particular car gives you what you want. If your desire is a mid engine car with a flat six motor, then your choice will be a CS. Same thing is if you want a wrist watch with tourbillon complication, then be prepare to spend at least $20k.

And of course, no one here is telling anyone to spend their life saving on a depreciating asset (a CS or whatever). You think everyone out there buying a high dollar toys don't have other investment which help build wealth?

And yes, I truly think if your take home income is at $8200, it's hard to justify owning a $75k plus car for several reasons.

1. $2500 mortage/home expense is not enough for a decent house.
2. $2000 a month is not enough for food, children education, secondary transport, travel/vacation, entertainment, etc....

I totally agree with you, if anyone is still in the stage of paying off their primary residence and need to save money for investment, then buying a 75k car is not the smartest move.

[chantaiman51]

Originally Posted by madoka

I answered "no" to all three.

Judging by my certificate of title, it took me 3.5 months to pay off the car. I don't think anyone would argue that I couldn't "afford" it.

Hmmm, please help me understand something here. You could afford an impractical sports car but don't have a house? Or you're living with parents? Or you have a house but not paid off? living in an apartment?

[crazyyankeefan]

Seriously guys. The only true reason here you people are claiming you wouldn't "want" a Porsche is that you simply CAN'T afford one. So please don't insult Porsche by saying that you would rather own the FR-S.

[Hawk77FT]

Originally Posted by chantaiman51

In this case, if you have $25k to spend on a fun car, then you buy the FRS. If you have $75k, then the CS is the more attractive choice. Both cars are the best choice in their own price category. It's absurb to say its smarter to buy the FRS over the CS.

It is not absurd! I think depends on what you're using your car for. Say you use your car for going from A to Z, right? It is absurd to buy a say 100k Merc over a 30k Toyota. It will still take you from A to Z. If you want your car to take from a to z and have some luxury options in your car then , Merc is a better option.

Same with BRZ/FRS vs Cayman. If you want the thrill of the driving, both give you that, therefore a better choice would be the BRZ because it is cheaper. Imagine both cars are the same, but one has more power but costs more, however they give you the same awesome driving experince but not at the same speeds. I think it comes down to preference to individuals who can afford both.
But as a choice of cars, for some that can afford the expenses associated with a Cayman, frs/brz would be smarter choice. Then again depends on your definition of "afford"...what kind of money you would have: Oprah money, or above average Joe money. They can both afford it, more or less but is the disposable income the same after one month expenses? NO!

[chantaiman51]

Originally Posted by Hawk77FT

It is not absurd! I think depends on what you're using your car for. Say you use your car for going from A to Z, right? It is absurd to buy a say 100k Merc over a 30k Toyota. It will still take you from A to Z. If you want your car to take from a to z and have some luxury options in your car then , Merc is a better option.

Same with BRZ/FRS vs Cayman. If you want the thrill of the driving, both give you that, therefore a better choice would be the BRZ because it is cheaper. Imagine both cars are the same, but one has more power but costs more, however they give you the same awesome driving experince but not at the same speeds. I think it comes down to preference to individuals who can afford both.
But as a choice of cars, for some that can afford the expenses associated with a Cayman, frs/brz would be smarter choice. Then again depends on your definition of "afford"...what kind of money you would have: Oprah money, or above average Joe money. They can both afford it, more or less but is the disposable income the same after one month expenses? NO!

Since when the BRZ/FRS = Cayman, S or R? I know Toyota used Cayman as a benchmark when they designed the FRS. But who concluded that they both gives you the same awesome driving experience, or same thrill of driving???Maserati biturbo and Merkur xr4ti were also benchmarked against the BMW 3 series. A bottle of Remy Louis XIII ($2200), XO ($130) and VSOP ($33) are all Cognac. Have the same alochol content, both get you drunk. But do they taste the same? How about Nikon D3/4 series DSLR vs Leica M8/9 or S2 system? Is it smarter to buy 1/5 priced Nikon?

Okay, back to the car now. Power output aside, sound from a flat six motor is vastly differently than a flat four motor, especially the wailing of the engine is from behind you. Front engine RWD cornering dynamic is totally different than mid engine RWD car. I really like the feel on how the front end slightly lifted during hard corner exit on a mid/rear engine car. On center feel on E steering vs hydraulic steering. The touch and smell of real alcantara/leather vs plastic/fake suede. For me, the are lots of noticeable differences and the whole driving experience is different.

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by chantaiman51

Since when the BRZ/FRS = Cayman, S or R? I know Toyota used Cayman as a benchmark when they designed the FRS. But who concluded that they both gives you the same awesome driving experience, or same thrill of driving???Maserati biturbo and Merkur xr4ti were also benchmarked against the BMW 3 series. A bottle of Remy Louis XIII ($2200), XO ($130) and VSOP ($33) are all Cognac. Have the same alochol content, both get you drunk. But do they taste the same? How about Nikon D3/4 series DSLR vs Leica M8/9 or S2 system? Is it smarter to buy 1/5 priced Nikon?

Okay, back to the car now. Power output aside, sound from a flat six motor is vastly differently than a flat four motor, especially the wailing of the engine is from behind you. Front engine RWD cornering dynamic is totally different than mid engine RWD car. I really like the feel on how the front end slightly lifted during hard corner exit on a mid/rear engine car. On center feel on E steering vs hydraulic steering. The touch and smell of real alcantara/leather vs plastic/fake suede. For me, the are lots of noticeable differences and the whole driving experience is different.

That's the thing. Since when can a freaken Toyota match up with everything a Porsche can offer. You pay for what you get. It's just simple as that. For whom still delusional about FR-S can provide the same driving experience, NO, it canNOT!

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by chantaiman51

All I am saying is if you need to comfortably afford a $75k car, you will need to have at least a $100k annual income. I don't see how hard is that to undedrstand.

Do you know what a straw man argument is? No one is arguing that you don't need at least $100k annual to afford a PCS. Look at the monthly take-home I wrote out. $8200/mo x 12 months = $98k post-tax. Pre-tax will be well above $100k. You're the only one arguing with yourself on this point.

Here's the exact statement you made that I'm disputing:

Originally Posted by chantaiman51

For people who say or just try to rationalize that they can "afford" to buy the CS but chose not to do so becuase of "smart" money management or hard to justify the cost. Forget it, you simply can't afford it, just plain and simple.

First of all, let's face it you make a pretty wild-ass assumption here and it turns out to be wrong.

I asked you how much someone needs to make to be able to "afford" a PCS, and you answered:

Originally Posted by chantaiman51

So to find out how much annual income you'll need to afford the CS, you will just use $1700 X 12 months / 20% = $102k.

Let me make this simple for you. I make well above that (i.e., I can afford a PCS according to your logic) and still chose an FR-S over a PCS. That should be all the information you need to see why your initial statement was wrong.

Also your latest post has a bunch of other incorrect statements/assumptions (i.e., you fail to take into consideration downpayment and loan term in your statement about having a "decent house" at $2500/mo mortgage, you say there's "no way" to quantify the worth of a car, but of course there is, we all quantify worth, that's how we choose one car over another, etc.) but there are too many wrong statements in there to address.

[was385]

Originally Posted by st162celica

Yeah 3 times the price, doesn't mean 3 times better.

Great value for money for us guys that cant afford something 3 times the price. Well in Aust its close to 4 times the price.

Dont get me wrong I love Porsche. More than any of the other brands. But in Aust, you can only dream of having cars like that.

BRZ - $40,000 drive away with leather and sat nav
86 GTS - $40,000 drive away with leather and sat nav

Porsche 911 Carrera S
2012
$263,100
7 speed Manual
2 door Coupe

Porsche Boxster S
2012
$138,600
7 speed Sports Automatic Dual Clutch
2 door Convertible

Porsche Cayman S
2011
$152,800
7 speed Sports Automatic Dual Clutch
2 door Coupe

WOW! That is crazy.

[was385]

Originally Posted by paros28

I simply don't like the looks of Porsches. Its for balding men trying to pick up younger chicks at clubs.

Really? It's usually the exact opposite line I hear. That the cars aren't masculine or showy enough. The 911 is a classic shape that when compared to other cars in the same price range really isn't all that wild. It's not like a corvette.

[AlexFi]

Originally Posted by paros28

I simply don't like the looks of Porsches. Its for balding men trying to pick up younger chicks at clubs.

Way to keep it down to earth. First, I agree. Second, when I was working on Porsche track cars along with other fancies like Aston and Ferrari, My appreciation only grows for a good, tuned, Toyota, Nissan, or Honda. The fancy cars were always breaking, and the parts and systems layout just seemed ... careless. I know, I know, you're supposed to drop a porsche engine to do ANYTHING to it, but a special telescoping socket just change plugs without dropping it? And on the Aston V12's from the 90's You had to take the intake manifold off just to change the coil packs, and those had to be changed because they couldn't take the heat from being bundled up in said intake manifold?? I don't know, I just got to drive a lot of exotics during that period, and they were almost all kind of a let down.

[AlexFi]

Wait I don't even want to say the porsche looks are for picking up chicks, I feel a bit like Was385 was saying. Kind of bland, but not in a clean, proportional way like Aston side profiles, just weird and bubble-esque.

[was385]

Originally Posted by AlexFi

Wait I don't even want to say the porsche looks are for picking up chicks, I feel a bit like Was385 was saying. Kind of bland, but not in a clean, proportional way like Aston side profiles, just weird and bubble-esque.

To sum it up, no 8 year old kids are putting up a poster of a 911 on their wall.

[Turbowned]

I love Porches. Love Porsches. I have a friend who builds and maintains Porsche race cars and it has made my love for them grow so much more. I finally got the pleasure of driving some when I worked at a Porsche/Audi dealer earlier this year. I got to take out a 2007 Cayman, 2001 and 2011 Boxster, and a 2009 911 Carrera S, all manual. And the argument "you just cant afford it" is absolutely true. I can't truly afford a good Porsche. If I had cash to spend on a car rather than financing, I would absolutely consider an air-cooled 911 as an alternative to a BRZ.

However I will say this: The value in performance and driving pleasure you get is not as great as some other cars. A lot of the money you pay for those cars is for the crest on the hood - their heritage, their racing pedigree, their instantly-recognizable style. Nothing wrong with it, but you can certainly find a car that is just as fun and just as fast for less.

[stevo_12v]

Originally Posted by chantaiman51

1. Is your primary residence paid off?
2. Do you have extra $80k sitting in the bank?
3. Is wife okay about the purchase?

If all three answers are yes, then you can afford a CS.

I'm glad I'm not married. I don't need a bitch to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own money.