So, just how good is the steering feedback?

[TuxedoCartman]

Ah HA!!! Took me long enough to figure this out, but finally found the best example demonstrating why the steering feels so numb in this car. And it wasn't due to a blast down a country road, or a track day, or hitting a patch of gravel on the side of the road or anything...

It's freeway driving.

With every car I've owned prior to this one, I could tell exactly where I was in the lane on a freeway by feeling the worn ruts in the road through the steering wheel; with the FR-S, I can't do that. I'm not saying that I'm incapable of figuring out where I am in the lane without it (hey... I'm not THAT old), but it's the clearest, most demonstrable example of the loss of feedback on this car. Whereas with some hydraulically assisted cars I've owned in the past, I could drive from Kansas City to Denver along I-70 with my eyes closed (provided, ya know... there were no other cars on the road), in the FR-S I don't dare look at the radio too long while at highway speeds. Easy way to find myself in a ditch.

Yes, it's still a great car, with a good chassis, yadda yadda... but I'm just saying in a perfect world, the steering on this car could be better. I'd probably find myself agreeing with some of the more sensationalistic hype too, if it had the same steering-feedback as a nearly 20-year-old RX-7.

[BMWDavid]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

Ah HA!!! Took me long enough to figure this out, but finally found the best example demonstrating why the steering feels so numb in this car. And it wasn't due to a blast down a country road, or a track day, or hitting a patch of gravel on the side of the road or anything...

It's freeway driving.

With every car I've owned prior to this one, I could tell exactly where I was in the lane on a freeway by feeling the worn ruts in the road through the steering wheel; with the FR-S, I can't do that. I'm not saying that I'm incapable of figuring out where I am in the lane without it (hey... I'm not THAT old), but it's the clearest, most demonstrable example of the loss of feedback on this car. Whereas with some hydraulically assisted cars I've owned in the past, I could drive from Kansas City to Denver along I-70 with my eyes closed (provided, ya know... there were no other cars on the road), in the FR-S I don't dare look at the radio too long while at highway speeds. Easy way to find myself in a ditch.

Yes, it's still a great car, with a good chassis, yadda yadda... but I'm just saying in a perfect world, the steering on this car could be better. I'd probably find myself agreeing with some of the more sensationalistic hype too, if it had the same steering-feedback as a nearly 20-year-old RX-7.

That is a very good example of what I'm feeling with this new EPS. You nailed it!

[nedmundo]

Originally Posted by BMWDavid

That is a very good example of what I'm feeling with this new EPS. You nailed it!

Yes, that has been exactly my experience with my TSX. When actively steering the car, as on a winding road, the steering's accuracy and linear response come to the fore, but the lack of feedback largely eliminates a "locked in" sensation on the highway. The car actually tracks well, but I can't feel it through the wheel. Until I got used to this, I thought it was a safety issue. It's almost as though you can drift across a lane without even feeling it with your hands, which can be disconcerting to say the least. (I do think a different set of tires could improve this though.)

Thanks for all the responses. This forum rocks. It seems that owners are actually more critical of the steering in this car then the professional reviewers have been, and the range of opinions is similar to what I've noticed with other performance cars with EPS, such as the new 3 Series.

Despite the numb steering, I loved the FR-S. I agree that the car overall is extremely communicative, which makes it a blast to drive, and I also thought I could feel grip levels through the steering wheel, which is more than can be said about most EPS systems. It felt much better to me, for example, than the steering in a 2012 328i Sport Line I tested.

Hopefully, EPS systems will improve generally, including the one in the FR-S/BRZ. The technology is here to stay, that's for sure.

[Aki]

Steering feel is actually what disappointed me about the FR-S, when I was prepped with all the hype. It's not bad, it's just not amazing. The movement is precise and quick though, which I like. Kinda reminds me of the G37 steering.

For now, nothing beats a good hydraulic system. Driving the E92 M3 around the track was bliss. Heavy or not, you feel connected to the road. That steering literally communicates everything. You could probably go over 180-grit sandpaper and feel it. You don't need that level of feedback to know when you're losing traction (FR-S communicates plenty), but on a subjective level it's just more engaging when the steering's telling you everything.

[Ravenlokk]

Its good. Suspension is responsive, and the lack of body roll from a stock car at the price is really quite impressive. It does like to slide in the rain, and as it has been mentioned its very predictable and easy to reel in. Can't wait to get more familiar with the slip over the winter, and getting more confident throwing the rear end around

[Vracer111]

Did ~900miles yesterday going through some major rain storms in west Texas and New Mexico (along with a gorgeous sunset following the New Mexico lightning and shower display). So after about 13 hours on the road I appreciate how the steering is even more for long trips. FR-S feels great and stable cruising in the wet at high speed and is not tiring at all - its relaxing for long high speed traveling while still allowing precise placemnet of the car when things get wet and hairy. Lots more miles to do today on the way up to southern Utah - about to depart Albuquerque and am 100% looking forward to spending a good part of the day high speed cruising with its relaxing yet precise steering.

[regal]

The e-steering is my bigest hang-up with the car. The best cars I have ever driven were the E24 and then E30 BMW's. There is no comparison. I amost consider e-steering a safety hazard. This is no car engineered for the Autobahn. I remember driving the old BMWs 20 hours straight on interstates just never feeling out of balance. This FRS is great on rural curvey roads, but it just isn't built for much over 60 mph like the German cars unfortunately.

With an E24 BMW you just knew you had control of the car based on the the steering wheel. If weight saving was the issue with the decision to use e-steering I would much rather have a manual rack than this . Sorry but sometimes new technology is a step in the wrong direction. Just hope someone will find a way to make it work.

[cgrey]

Originally Posted by regal

The e-steering is my bigest hang-up with the car. The best cars I have ever driven were the E24 and then E30 BMW's. There is no comparison. I amost consider e-steering a safety hazard. This is no car engineered for the Autobahn. I remember driving the old BMWs 20 hours straight on interstates just never feeling out of balance. This FRS is great on rural curvey roads, but it just isn't built for much over 60 mph like the German cars unfortunately.

With an E24 BMW you just knew you had control of the car based on the the steering wheel. If weight saving was the issue with the decision to use e-steering I would much rather have a manual rack than this . Sorry but sometimes new technology is a step in the wrong direction. Just hope someone will find a way to make it work.

Why do you feel control is lacking at speeds over 60mph?

[regal]

Hard to explain but here is an example:

60mph+ long sweep on an interstate thru the mountains. As you hold the turn with a normal steering rack you feel the plant the wheels have gripping the roads. The faster you go thru a long sweep the stiffer the wheel becomes, letting you know the car is "in position".

My first car with e-steering was a Yaris. Never could get used to the e-steering.

This car is a lot better up to about 60. After that I am still a little uneasy with it. I know the spring rates on the front are just not firm enough and thats a big part of it. But there is something non-linear with the steering.

Obviously young expert drivers get the hang of it. For me e-steering is sort of a mental block.

[Vracer111]

Regal, use the throttle more to turn and set the car (off/neutral throttle for slow/decreasing radius turns or on-throttle for high speed sweepers more precisely)... Had a blast on Thursday ripping through some southern Utah paved mountain/canyon roads at high speed. Car is rewarding with the sticky tires (max performance) and keeping it at 5+k rpm, and the E-steering is right on in its precision and accuracy and to me the turn of the steering wheel has direct relationship on how much angle you will turn in at every speed. It only gets interesting on mountain roads that are not paved...steep gravel detour roads make it interesting and loose yet predictable at low speeds and high altitude (10-11k feet).

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by regal

The e-steering is my bigest hang-up with the car. The best cars I have ever driven were the E24 and then E30 BMW's. There is no comparison. I amost consider e-steering a safety hazard. This is no car engineered for the Autobahn. I remember driving the old BMWs 20 hours straight on interstates just never feeling out of balance. This FRS is great on rural curvey roads, but it just isn't built for much over 60 mph like the German cars unfortunately.

With an E24 BMW you just knew you had control of the car based on the the steering wheel. If weight saving was the issue with the decision to use e-steering I would much rather have a manual rack than this . Sorry but sometimes new technology is a step in the wrong direction. Just hope someone will find a way to make it work.

Originally Posted by cgrey

Why do you feel control is lacking at speeds over 60mph?

its probably more to do with the driver, ive done big sweepers around 100 mph on wet roads and had zero problems with handling or grip, i was confidently planted and never once had a second thought that it might not be able to handle what i was about to dish it...

edit: ohh yeah and im on the stock tires too

[Strive-2-B-A-Driver]

^imo the traction control system even when fully off in this car intervenes very smoothly and gives a sense of false security. I need another go at this car with everything off (pulled fuse) and see what it's really like

[nedmundo]

Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman

Ah HA!!! Took me long enough to figure this out, but finally found the best example demonstrating why the steering feels so numb in this car. And it wasn't due to a blast down a country road, or a track day, or hitting a patch of gravel on the side of the road or anything...

It's freeway driving.

With every car I've owned prior to this one, I could tell exactly where I was in the lane on a freeway by feeling the worn ruts in the road through the steering wheel; with the FR-S, I can't do that. I'm not saying that I'm incapable of figuring out where I am in the lane without it (hey... I'm not THAT old), but it's the clearest, most demonstrable example of the loss of feedback on this car. Whereas with some hydraulically assisted cars I've owned in the past, I could drive from Kansas City to Denver along I-70 with my eyes closed (provided, ya know... there were no other cars on the road), in the FR-S I don't dare look at the radio too long while at highway speeds. Easy way to find myself in a ditch.

As I said above, this has been my experience with my 2010 TSX, and our friends at Car & Driver have, thankfully, examined and explained the phenomenon. In the December 2012 edition, they explore the differences between electric power steering (EPS) and hydraulic (HPS) by using two new BMW xDrive 5 Series models, a 528i with EPS and a 535i with HPS. They "recorded steering torque versus lateral acceleration while turning the steering wheel left then right in a smooth, sinusoidal fashion at various steady speeds."

They "learned from these measurements that the rise in steering effort immediately off-center is significantly quicker and higher with HPS, giving the 535i a tighter, more connected feeling in straight ahead driving. Also, all 12 of the 535i traces...depict significantly less wander and deviation than is evident in the 528i plots. In other words, the buildup and decay of steering effort during back-and-forth maneuvers is more consistent with HPS, an advantage useful during passing maneuvers. Higher efforts do not equate to better feedback, but at least the 535i's on-center characteristics lend a more secure sensation on the highway."

This is exactly what I've been griping about in my TSX: It lacks the "locked in" sensation I liked so much in my Saab 9-5 Aero and other cars with great HPS. I've never felt the same sense of control on the highway.

Based on driving the new Focus, both base and ST versions, I think Ford has figured out how to program EPS for better on-center feel. The ST doesn't feel as "on rails" as, say, a first gen Mazdaspeed 3, but it's much better than my Acura or the new 328i in this respect, and I think it's because effort is very high just off-center.

I've been waiting for one of the auto mags to dig into this issue, because the degradation of steering feel is a major bummer IMO. I'm glad C&D finally took up the task, and the entire article is a great read. They also address the characteristics of EPS that reduce feedback/road feel...all good stuff IMO.