Any official 0-60 times between auto and manual?

[regal]

Originally Posted by dori.

You know, at first I thought you were joking...

The clutch has an engagement point, just as the gas and brake do. None of the 3 pedals are digital inputs. They all have a range of motion in which they work in. You telling me that you (basically) wish for the clutch to operate like a light switch means that you don't understand how a manual transmission works and have not spent enough time using one.
If it WERE like that, the car would be much harder to control. Could you imagine having to be fully in gear every time you back the car up?

Now in this car, it is true that the full engagement point in this car is fairly high in the pedal's travel. If you're used to cars with a more linear feel then yeah it takes getting used to.

Clutches don't 'go bad', they are a wear item like anything else on the car. Anyone that replaces his/her clutch after 700 miles or 5 times in 200k either just had the bad luck of having defective clutches or just plainly doesn't know how to drive. Those are rare occurrences. How are you going to let a single incident like that deter you from driving manual? How about the hundreds of forum members that drive the 6MT and have no problem?
Shit, I even know an FR-S owner whose car is his first manual and he's had no problems.

Very good post, glad someone said it. If there is a valid compailt about the clutch its that it isn't stiff enough, but I am sure there will be an aftermarket "fix" to that.

Sub, if its really an issue for you there is / was the MRS (MR2-Spyder) from Toyota that had something similiar to what you want, I think few liked the SMT so you may be able to find a cherry MRS with SMT, It was Toyota's last sports car. A whole lot different than the FR-S but still a very nice car.

[dori.]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

There is a huge difference between them. As soon as I step on my gas pedal in my car it goes and goes depending on how fast I want it to go. The same thing applies to brakes. A clutch does not follow the same theory and you know it. Best way to describe a clutches engagement point is by using a pie fraction circle. 5-10% of the pie is the stupid ass engagement area and the other 90% is the bullshit area. Why couldn't it have been at least 50%? What's so hard in automakers doing that?

When I was trying to drive a S2000 I tried every foot trick I could find on that light ass clutch and for the love of God I swear I couldn't find the engagement point for 5 minutes. It as if its % is about 1% somewhere in the travel. Then I drove a 350Z manual and it was easier. It felt like it was around 20% vs the S2000. Its the only manual transmission car I would drive.

if it was 50% then it wouldn't be a 'point' it'd be an wide area...
and you are further reinforcing my point that you don't understand how a manual works.

1) Finding when the clutch engages is the first thing you should do when you drive a stick shift car that is new to you (well aside from adjusting your seat and mirrors and all that). All it takes is you letting the clutch out without any gas. Once the car starts moving a bit, you found it. Simple.

2) Every car is DIFFERENT. My Civic takes up the pedal more gradually than my BRZ. My old FC probably had the most gradual pedal take of any car I've ever driven. Shit I even drove 2 different S2K's and they had different engagement points (probably difference between AP1 and AP2 and also mileage). Each car has its own unique engagement point that you have to find.

3) you probably don't (more like definitely...) know that even if you step on the pedal a little bit you are slightly disengaging the clutch (wow sounds just like the gas and brake!), which is why people say not to rest your foot on the clutch pedal, since you'll be causing extra wear.
It NEEDS to have a range of travel, because otherwise you'd go flying everywhere. At some point you have to have the extra control to slip the clutch into gear, for example, when parking.

4) My challenge to you, is that you drive both the manual and automatic versions of the car. Want to know how I can speak as an informed person about manuals and the difference between it and the auto? I've been driving stick for almost 9 years, and I drove the automatic FR-S (which is good imo, but I wouldn't choose it over the stick).

[pete66]

C&D tested the auto FR-S, they got 8.1 and their BRZ manual tested 6.3. Not very surprised, but still a significant difference.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ed-test-review

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by regal

Yes when you use the clutch properly it will last nearly forever.

The slave cylinder will probably go first if driven right, I need to check but it should be accesible for replacement without dropping the tranny.

As far as the throw-out bearing, yes it will go. But that should last well over 100k.

The important thing about this is as long as the synchros last a clutch, throw-out bearing, slave cylinder can be replaced by any joe smoe mechanic (especially on this RWD car), its really easy. So in a decade, or if you screw up the clutch (everyone makes mistakes) it won't break the bank. It is much easier (less labor) to replace a clutch, throw-out bearing, surface the flywheel on this FRS than any Honda or other FWD or MR car.

Working on an auto tranny is something very few people can do right, with a 6 speed auto practically no one.

So when the auto tranny starts to lose 6th gear, sell

hopefully toyota built the "slush" as a sturdy dependable unit like most of the stuff they build.however,it is just far more "complicated" to repair than ANY manual would be,and it's for that reason (among many others) that will make me choose stick over auto every time,that, and over 40 years of driving nothin' BUT stick! i say you are a little light on the "throw out" bearing,because my experience with them has been around 200.000 miles before they have let go on me,but again,this has been MY experience!

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

It doesn't look that bad!

perhaps,but this tranny is going to get the shit beat out of it,and ya better hope it breaks while in the warranty,because it will be cost prohibitive to fix!
that said,still,i believe it is a well built unit because the japanese really do it right! i have complete confidence the car taken as a whole,WILL still draw a "much better than average" repair record!

Originally Posted by dori.

You know, at first I thought you were joking...

The clutch has an engagement point, just as the gas and brake do. None of the 3 pedals are digital inputs. They all have a range of motion in which they work in. You telling me that you (basically) wish for the clutch to operate like a light switch means that you don't understand how a manual transmission works and have not spent enough time using one.
If it WERE like that, the car would be much harder to control. Could you imagine having to be fully in gear every time you back the car up?

Now in this car, it is true that the full engagement point in this car is fairly high in the pedal's travel. If you're used to cars with a more linear feel then yeah it takes getting used to.

Clutches don't 'go bad', they are a wear item like anything else on the car. Anyone that replaces his/her clutch after 700 miles or 5 times in 200k either just had the bad luck of having defective clutches or just plainly doesn't know how to drive. Those are rare occurrences. How are you going to let a single incident like that deter you from driving manual? How about the hundreds of forum members that drive the 6MT and have no problem?
Shit, I even know an FR-S owner whose car is his first manual and he's had no problems.

this is correct! GENERALLY clutches do not go bad,but ,yes,you can get defective parts just like any other part in a car.with that said,it is UNCOMMON to see these parts fail
and failure is generally attributed to "poor" driving habits,and much more than defective parts.in the final analysis,IF you know how to drive stick properly,failing parts should
NOT be a concern to you!

Originally Posted by regal

Very good post, glad someone said it. If there is a valid compailt about the clutch its that it isn't stiff enough, but I am sure there will be an aftermarket "fix" to that.

Sub, if its really an issue for you there is / was the MRS (MR2-Spyder) from Toyota that had something similiar to what you want, I think few liked the SMT so you may be able to find a cherry MRS with SMT, It was Toyota's last sports car. A whole lot different than the FR-S but still a very nice car.

Originally Posted by dori.

if it was 50% then it wouldn't be a 'point' it'd be an wide area...
and you are further reinforcing my point that you don't understand how a manual works.

1) Finding when the clutch engages is the first thing you should do when you drive a stick shift car that is new to you (well aside from adjusting your seat and mirrors and all that). All it takes is you letting the clutch out without any gas. Once the car starts moving a bit, you found it. Simple.

2) Every car is DIFFERENT. My Civic takes up the pedal more gradually than my BRZ. My old FC probably had the most gradual pedal take of any car I've ever driven. Shit I even drove 2 different S2K's and they had different engagement points (probably difference between AP1 and AP2 and also mileage). Each car has its own unique engagement point that you have to find.

3) you probably don't (more like definitely...) know that even if you step on the pedal a little bit you are slightly disengaging the clutch (wow sounds just like the gas and brake!), which is why people say not to rest your foot on the clutch pedal, since you'll be causing extra wear.
It NEEDS to have a range of travel, because otherwise you'd go flying everywhere. At some point you have to have the extra control to slip the clutch into gear, for example, when parking.

4) My challenge to you, is that you drive both the manual and automatic versions of the car. Want to know how I can speak as an informed person about manuals and the difference between it and the auto? I've been driving stick for almost 9 years, and I drove the automatic FR-S (which is good imo, but I wouldn't choose it over the stick).

this is "dead nuts" accurate! keeping your foot OFF the clutch cannot be over stated!..generally THIS is the main reason for burning 'em up! as the op has stated,and i agree,finding the "engagement point" is necessary on any car with a manual transmission,because they ARE all different.the frs has what i call a "soft" pedal,but is very smooth,and linear,as it should be in a car like this!..great job! toyosubaru!

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by dori.

if it was 50% then it wouldn't be a 'point' it'd be an wide area...
and you are further reinforcing my point that you don't understand how a manual works.

1) Finding when the clutch engages is the first thing you should do when you drive a stick shift car that is new to you (well aside from adjusting your seat and mirrors and all that). All it takes is you letting the clutch out without any gas. Once the car starts moving a bit, you found it. Simple.

2) Every car is DIFFERENT. My Civic takes up the pedal more gradually than my BRZ. My old FC probably had the most gradual pedal take of any car I've ever driven. Shit I even drove 2 different S2K's and they had different engagement points (probably difference between AP1 and AP2 and also mileage). Each car has its own unique engagement point that you have to find.

3) you probably don't (more like definitely...) know that even if you step on the pedal a little bit you are slightly disengaging the clutch (wow sounds just like the gas and brake!), which is why people say not to rest your foot on the clutch pedal, since you'll be causing extra wear.
It NEEDS to have a range of travel, because otherwise you'd go flying everywhere. At some point you have to have the extra control to slip the clutch into gear, for example, when parking.

4) My challenge to you, is that you drive both the manual and automatic versions of the car. Want to know how I can speak as an informed person about manuals and the difference between it and the auto? I've been driving stick for almost 9 years, and I drove the automatic FR-S (which is good imo, but I wouldn't choose it over the stick).

I think you fail to understand what I was saying. Most of the times I can't find the engagement point because the window is so slim or it overall lacks feel period. Now you might be able to feel that point in every single manual tranny but I am not you. I love rowing gears but as It stand I will never like the clutch until they either make it easy to feel the area of engagement on every single car. And I must be crazy to most manual transmission lovers but I prefer to be more invested in turning, braking and shifting and repeating that. That's a fun time for me! With some modern auto's(DCT and FRS type auto's) I can accomplish all 3 without the clutch. You have no idea how much hate I have for the clutch. It's apart of the top 10 things I hate in the world.

Also to your first point gas and brakes have a wide area. That's why I was saying they are not alike.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by pete66

C&D tested the auto FR-S, they got 8.1 and their BRZ manual tested 6.3. Not very surprised, but still a significant difference.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ed-test-review

The big reason these cars have a vast difference in acceleration is because of launching in favor of the manual. Do me a favor and look at the 5-60 time instead you will be very surprised about real world results without hard launching!

[SUB-FT86]

This video made me fall in love with the FRS automatic! I swear it acts just like a manual and I love how it responds to upshifts and downshifts in a fast yet sporting manner.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gBM3RCzU3I"]Scion FR-S Automatic Paddle Shift speed - YouTube[/ame]

[Memphis]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

The big reason these cars have a vast difference in acceleration is because of launching in favor of the manual. Do me a favor and look at the 5-60 time instead you will be very surprised about real world results without hard launching!

Yeah after the initial launch the auto keeps up with the manual very well. Again it is the only downfall of the auto.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Most of the times I can't find the engagement point because the window is so slim or it overall lacks feel period.

It sounds like you and manual transmissions just weren't meant to be. There's no shame in that (a lot of automated transmissions these days are awesome anyway), but don't blame it on the car.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

It sounds like you and manual transmissions just weren't meant to be. There's no shame in that (a lot of automated transmissions these days are awesome anyway), but don't blame it on the car.

That's exactly how I felt after testing 5 of them out and coming away barely able to feel the engagement point in 1 of them which was the 350Z. I never blamed any car though. I just don't like how there is not enough feel for me to be precise and I don't want to risk spending gobs of money on clutches over the years because I am not being precise enough.

[df.dima]

Ive never driven a manual before. I test drove auto fr-s for a short 5 minutes, I was really intrigued by its auto, manual mode was fun and I liked the response. But I told myself its time to learn.
I signed up for MT fr-s, was scared shitless. I took a couple of lessons on MT beforehand. I hated the clutch with passion for the first month or so. Now 3 and a bit months later, I love it. I'm not perfect with it yet, but I can't wait to drop in the seat and start rowing it (if there's no traffic ahead ), rev matching was a fun concept to learn... It took a lot of work to love it, some of it was sitting in traffic for 10 minutes almost every morning, but I made it . For some, it may take only little time, for me I found it was good 2 months when I started feeling really good about it... The only thing I'm missing from auto tranny is the auto-creep when applying no brakes, which I find perfect for snoozing and slugging around in the traffic situation. Pick whichever you like, its all good, they are all fun .

[pete66]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

The big reason these cars have a vast difference in acceleration is because of launching in favor of the manual. Do me a favor and look at the 5-60 time instead you will be very surprised about real world results without hard launching!

Yeah 5-60 time is not as different, just taking note of the 0-60 time since that's what the thread was about

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by df.dima

Ive never driven a manual before. I test drove auto fr-s for a short 5 minutes, I was really intrigued by its auto, manual mode was fun and I liked the response. But I told myself its time to learn.
I signed up for MT fr-s, was scared shitless. I took a couple of lessons on MT beforehand. I hated the clutch with passion for the first month or so. Now 3 and a bit months later, I love it. I'm not perfect with it yet, but I can't wait to drop in the seat and start rowing it (if there's no traffic ahead ), rev matching was a fun concept to learn... It took a lot of work to love it, some of it was sitting in traffic for 10 minutes almost every morning, but I made it . For some, it may take only little time, for me I found it was good 2 months when I started feeling really good about it... The only thing I'm missing from auto tranny is the auto-creep when applying no brakes, which I find perfect for snoozing and slugging around in the traffic situation. Pick whichever you like, its all good, they are all fun .

I like your review. Very informative look from someone who likes both.

[zoomzoomers]

I went to a car clinic a few months back to be on a panel for an upcoming new car. There was a factory engineer there and I got a few quick minutes to chat with him when we got a few minutes. One of the things I asked him was about the current generation of AT's in most sports/sporty cars. He stated that most of the "current" AT's in sports/sporty cars today will outperform MT's in 99% in any drag race (of course gearing will effect this). The "only" reason they currently DO NOT out perform MT's is the fact that practically ALL manufacturers install fuel cut-off devices in their cars when the brake pedal is depressed. Meaning that you can't do a brake + gas pedal take off for 0 - 60 or 1/4 mile runs. This is completely a safety measure put in place because they got tired of getting sued by idiots who don't know the difference between the brake pedal and the gas pedal. Now launch control would solve this problem, but at this price level it would add too much to the bottom line.

Now I have an AT BRZ, but honestly I could care less what anyone else thinks about that or what others choose to buy. That's their business and theirs alone. Now if I could inject my 2 cents into this discussion... I find it quite funny that when the initial 0 - 60 of the FRS/BRZ was released you had all manner of people stating that, "this isn't a Mustang and if you want a fast car go buy one". And that, "this car isn't about speed yada yada". Then have "some" of these same people turn around and knock the AT because it's "slower" than the MT.

Last night I had a drink with a few of my goo buddy's. One has a 1st year GT-R and the other has a 997 Porsche. When both of them asked me about how fast, or slow, my car is I asked them that I have a blast driving this car and when it was that they had a similar time in their cars. I hate to sound like a cliche, but do what YOU like. In the end, that's all that matters. :happy0180: