Unofficial - CEL/SL/Idle Issue List for FR-S/BRZ Owners

[Norkoastal]

Originally Posted by gdi2290

it was a huge list that came out to be 5k (pretty much cams/sensors/etc)= I'll post the list tomorrow when I'm home) they also had to order $600 tools before they could even work on it. I also have to repaint my bumper (thanks to fail towing company) so I'm having that done while new cam sensors are being sent in

I understand Toyota making guesses for fixes, but hope Subaru nips this and the crickets soon as the numbers seem to be growing by the day..

[450hp/tonne]

Originally Posted by Norkoastal

I understand Toyota making guesses for fixes, but hope Subaru nips this and the crickets soon as the numbers seem to be growing by the day..

The Subaru bulletin showed the 2012 Impreza with FB engine was also affected, so Subaru dealers would have more experience from that ...

[Grishbok]

Originally Posted by michaelahess

My issue is my remoteness. Closest Subaru dealer is 3 hours away. If my car develops the issue, will they allow my local Toyota dealer to fix it, or truk the damn thing to the nearest dealer?

I knew this was a first MY vehicle, but it's also coming from Toyota and Subaru, two of the most reliable brands out there. I have rather high expectations of quality control. From what I'm seeing issues wise with these cars, they aren't being met.

I'm an engineer for a different field entirely. In our field we give RFO's (Reason for Outage) to our customers when we have failures. These won't divulge company secrets of course but they will explain why and what caused the problem as well as what steps are being taken to remedy the situation and prevent further issues. We loose business, get investigated by the government, you name it. We still do it, and generally speaking, it's not something that's very life threatening, like a car catching on fire could be.

Sure it takes time to find the cause, but if Toyota even said, "Once we figure out the exact cause and resolution, we will inform you." I would be happy. Then after their supply chain is in order they release the TSB or notice of the root cause.

They don't need to say "sensor Z from manufacturer P had a failure in the A," just a function of the blah blah subsystem was miscalibrated and caused an occasional massive nuclear explosion of blah blah blah with potential side affects of xyz.

That way you get a good idea of what the issue is, and you can make an informed decision about getting repairs done. Do I trailer it to the dealer 3 hours away, can I safely drive it that far, should I get the manufacturer to deal with everything up until the point where the car is back in my driveway?

From what I've read in this thread, it sounds like the problem has been isolated and is being fixed. At this point they sure as hell should know the expected VIN's that could face this issue and notify those owners to get the vehicle in to be checked out.

OK done ranting, obviously I believe in transparency and sharing patents

I can understand where you are coming from and the frustration, however RFO's and similar such audits are a component of a service oriented business, ITIL framework. The problems with the cars still fall into the Manufacturing business ISO compliance framework at this time. The discovery, identification, resolution, and procedural audits all take time to do thoroughly and properly. No sense in sending out an RFO that ends up being completely inaccurate right?

Yes, they WILL tow your car, definitely free of charge, to your nearest dealer or if youd like, you can contact your customer service representative and they would be more than happy to assist with arranging transport of your car.

From everything I have seen, read, been told, researched, they are doing more than due diligence in responding to the problem. It is not economically viable for a total recall of all cars sold. This is not a product wide problem, im sure we can agree to that as not ALL cars sold have this problem, this could change, though doubtful. There simply HAS to be a common factor to the vehicles displaying the error, and this is what they need to find for a definitive plan of action. Once that is established, then they will release a statement, bulletin, or some other method of displaying their version of your RFO as it is passed into the service facing architecture.

For reference, here is the customer service contact information for the respective companies. I hope we can all find closure to this problem quickly and cooperatively.


http://www.scion.com/contact/
customer service phone #: 1.866.70.SCION

https://www.subaru.com/shopping-tools/contact-us.html
Customer service phone #: 1-800-SUBARU3

[Yruyur]

I'll be calling them on Monday

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by 450hp/tonne

Customers need to know that both manufacturers can support vehicles with the issue. You are right that the details of the cause should never be shared publicly. The research done on here did surprise me!

Outing me?

He Lives! (Great Party, isn't it?...) :happy0180:

(as for the "outing you" thing, I was kinda irritates at the "Toyoubaru - 1, Forum Members - 0" comment. sorry...)

[eurospeed]

The problem here is not entirely the idle issue, the CEL, or the first year gremlins -- where others feel a need to constantly remind us of first year problems as if it never crossed our minds...

For me, the problems stemmed from a series of mismanaged events through dealer incompetence, lack of communication, and added confusion from Toyota/Subaru all wrapped up with utterly useless customer service. This then required (as another member, soconfoozed, eloquently put it) the need to micromanage everyone from the service department, to the owner/gm, to the rental car advisor, right back to the Scion corporate case manager.

Not to relive the pain or repeat what many others here have echoed, but daily calls, constant frustration, and confrontational, arrogant, and belligerent dealership management was absolutely no picnic. To top it all off, when I picked up the car, I received the bonus of added scratches in the door and hood paint along with scuffs on the interior door panel as if they were opening the door with their boots. Mind you, I had the car Opti-coated the night before the CEL and the paint and interior were perfect in those locations before I dropped it off at the dealer. Of course, the dealer claimed they didn't do it and apparently did not understand the term accountability either.

Now that I've had the car long enough to put on an additional 250 miles, I'm noticing other problems such as the "crickets," the interior clicking noise in the rear, rattling door panels, and the idle sometimes dips below 500 RPM in neutral with a light application of the accelerator. I believe I'm only missing the tail light condensation to complete the list.

Again, some of those issues may be easily remedied, but with the sour taste already in my mouth from the first round of pain, I'm not at all looking forward to dealing with Toyota. It's a shame too, as this was my first Toyota purchase and will likely be my last.

The 86 is a wonderful design, just very poorly executed.

[450hp/tonne]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

He Lives! (Great Party, isn't it?...) :happy0180:

Sorry, I've been working on this very issue so that customers can party! Not getting much sleep and my wife thinks I've gotten grumpier

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

(as for the "outing you" thing, I was kinda irritates at the "Toyoubaru - 1, Forum Members - 0" comment. sorry...)

Sorry lol
As a consolation, of all the theories people are coming up with on their own, some of your most recent ideas have been the best thought out!

[@Art_Mighty]

There's some tasty morsels in your posts....

Originally Posted by Grishbok

if YOU were the Executive in charge of the FRS/BRZ, how would you handle this given situation? Would you a. jump the gun and freak out over a forum with a thread regarding the issue, recall ALL sold cars to date, replace any part in question and end up costing your employer billions in revenue on cars that may or may not have ever even had an issue to start with?

Exhibit A: Case study on the BMW S54 Rod Bearing Failures. BMW recalled every E46 M3 made from Oct 2001, thru March 2002 to completely rebuild their bottom ends and replace their oil pumps because of problems with the connecting rod bearings being under sized. Engine warrantees for all 2001 and 2002 M3's were extended to 100k miles (extended beyond the affected engines). Several hundred motors were replaced as a result of damage that was found during the rebuild process...

...and yes, I am comparing a $25,000 car with a $55,000 car, a $10,000 crate engine (someone, please correct me if I'm wrong about cost of an FA20) with an $18,000 crate engine and no, I'm not crazy. I could argue that the successful launch of this car is worth more to Toyota then the successful launch of the E46 M3 meant to BMW in 2001-2002. If BMW could afford this, so could Toyota

Sometimes an extraordinary response is appropriate, sometimes it isnt.

The one thing I would do is instruct my customer service staff to stop lying to customers telling them "they're the first to report the issue" (as has been reported multiple times in this thread). To my paying customers, I would acknowledge the problem.

As for the, "freak out over a forum with a thread" statement I'm going to go out on a limb here and say this; only a fraction of the affected cars are on this thread. Toyota/Subaru knows much better then we do what the numbers are and it's unlikely 100 or so cars represented here represent the total number defects. Also, I believe the numbers will continue to grown because the affected cars are probably still working themselves out of the supply chain.

In short, there's plenty of room for this to grow into a major headache for them.

Originally Posted by Grishbok

b. Look at the cars being brought back and reported through your official channels, attempt to isolate and uncover the common denominator using your dealer networks and service technicians training and experience.

Option B. is the only way to determine root cause. However....

The effectiveness of this approach depends entirely on the competency of and the resources available to the technicians. The training is a plus but there's practically ZERO boxer engine experience within the network of Toyota service departments. From the the post repair reports coming in most people seem to be having good experiences, some aren't.

Originally Posted by Grishbok

Should you stop driving your car out of fear? That doesnt make much sense, if you dont have the problem, and your car is operating as it should, drive it.

AMEN. As far as I can tell about 5-7% of the cars are affected.

Originally Posted by Grishbok

So far, Subaru and Scion have done an impecable job at addressing these concerns with unheard of customer service. Many of you have posted you have received reimbursement for your monthly payment. They did not HAVE to do this. You signed a document saying you would pay x amount each month you owned the car.

Indeed, this is a nice touch. Toyota especially should be congratulated for their generosity (from some of the posts here I'm not sure Subaru has been as giving)

Originally Posted by Grishbok

Good luck getting reimbursement from Audi. Theyd walk out and drop a dookie on the hood of your car before they ever gave you a cent.

VW/Audi is in my opinion the worst company you could by a car from. The 1.8T Coil Pack fiasco, the issues with the 2.7 turbo's, the VVT systems dying on 60k B6 V8's in the S4's, the windows "melting" out of their convertible tops. The list of beautifully styled crap with those clowns is endless...

Originally Posted by Grishbok

If you have the problem, let the dealer networks do their thing...

Indeed, the service we get from them are the only hope we have...

Originally Posted by Grishbok

...and the executives in charge, have been trained and groomed specifically for their job role. They are doing everything they can.

...and with that comment you're beginning to sound a lot like a "social networking specialist" companies hire when they need to dig themselves out of these messes.

[Grishbok]

hahaha, I like your style sir. Im not though, they probably get paid better than I.


The M3 case study goes along brilliantly, as they isolated the problem to a 5 month production span, and went tailored the recall accordingly, minimizing excess cost.

I also agree in the customer service representatives being under-informed. This is unfortunate as they are the first point of contact for your consumer base, and unfortunately not uncommon.

Again, I like your style sir.

sidenote: my favorite Audi catastrophy, is the introduction of the first DI engine in the b7 A4 2.0t which decides to blow itself to pieces right outside of 60k miles due to cam/cam follower/fuel plunger failure. I actually just got a class action lawsuit notification in the mail the other day regarding water leakage from the sunroof... id prefer one about the engine blowing itself up but oh well.

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by 450hp/tonne

Sorry, I've been working on this very issue so that customers can party! Not getting much sleep and my wife thinks I've gotten grumpier

As a consolation, of all the theories people are coming up with on their own, some of your most recent ideas have been the best thought out!

Like a cat I can deductively reason myself into a paper bag but not manage to find my way out.

As a group, the more we communicate to each other the clearer the picture becomes. We're really passionate about this platform but at the same time a car is just a tool we trust to get us reliably and safely to our destination. Unfortunately none of us who are affected believe this platform is reliable and safe anymore. Freebies won't remove the doubts; the only thing that can close that gap for me and many of us is understanding root cause (and so the quest goes on). If i setup a secure, encrypted channel and you spill the beans there's a large quantity of ice cold beer in it for you!



I empathize with the situation you're in and I'm quite surprised you're actively involved on the SWAT team for this issue being so far from Japan (time zone?)

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by Grishbok

hahaha, I like your style sir. Im not though, they probably get paid better than I.


The M3 case study goes along brilliantly, as they isolated the problem to a 5 month production span, and went tailored the recall accordingly, minimizing excess cost.

I also agree in the customer service representatives being under-informed. This is unfortunate as they are the first point of contact for your consumer base, and unfortunately not uncommon.

Again, I like your style sir.

sidenote: my favorite Audi catastrophy, is the introduction of the first DI engine in the b7 A4 2.0t which decides to blow itself to pieces right outside of 60k miles due to cam/cam follower/fuel plunger failure. I actually just got a class action lawsuit notification in the mail the other day regarding water leakage from the sunroof... id prefer one about the engine blowing itself up but oh well.

Thank you for your kind words...

Of course the part I left out of the story was the VERY ugly situation BMW found itself getting sued by its own customers before they reversed their position (they not only settled with everyone, they paid their legal bills). I believe there's a lot of parallels between how BMW handled S54 and what could be done to make the FA20 right. I can only hope that Toyota/Subaru won't take the same dark path to the light.

As for Audi, their exteriors and interiors are beautiful beyond words. The real problem with VW/Audi is they need to stop engineering new EVERYTHING and spend a couple of billion dollars working out the bugs in their current platforms. They're a company that's ---><--- close to getting it right.

[450hp/tonne]

Originally Posted by @Art_Mighty

If i setup a secure, encrypted channel and you spill the beans there's a large quantity of ice cold beer in it for you!



I empathize with the situation you're in and I'm quite surprised you're actively involved on the SWAT team for this issue being so far from Japan (time zone?)

Nice offer, but there isn't enough Corona in Mexico ...

I'm sure someone will leak a bulletin soon after release, which should explain the issue simply. It wouldn't be the first time (but in the 2 recent Aussie cases the person was quickly tracked down by Toyota's legal department) ...

[@Art_Mighty]

Originally Posted by 450hp/tonne

It wouldn't be the first time (but in the 2 recent Aussie cases the person was quickly tracked down by Toyota's legal department) ...

I was reading somewhere that didn't end well for someone.

Ok throw us a bone. Are there materials anywhere that can be shared with the public about the principle and operation of the FA20's VVT system. Teach us how to fish...

[450hp/tonne]

This is all I can share (ignore that the video shows a V8):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWZmc9Xx6mg&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]BorgWarner Variable Cam Timing (Mid Position Lock) - YouTube[/ame]


Happy fishing ...