Brakes for Turbo Upgrade?

[wootwoot]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

With the car already balanced and several trackers seeing good trail braking results, I cant imagine that a 4 corner brake upgrade is necessary to get the performance you absolutely need for HPDE.

What we want is getting repeated shorter stopping distance with no fade. While wheels, tires, pads can address the majority of stopping distance. As well as SS Lines, HP Fluid, and ducting can address majority of fade. Increasing the rotor size and effective caliper clamp area, is something that seems to almost see no major benefit cost wise.To me at least...

considering we are only stopping a car that weighs roughly 2800lbs, the factory rotor area is 11.4 rear, 11.6 front, and already has a stopping distance average of 60-0 @ 115ft on its factory tires, rubber lines, OEM pads, and OEM fluid.

How does this compare? a 1992 Mazda rx7 twin turbo, one of the great skidpad performers ever. Has roughly 2800-2900lbs. The factory rotor area is 11.5 all around. With 4 piston calipers up front. Rubber lines, and 225/50 and 16x8 all around. Made a Average of 114ft from 60-0.

The AWD Mitsubishi Evo VIII MR with 3250lbs, on 12.7' Brembo rotors and 4-piston calipers front, and 12' Brembo rotors and 2-piston calipers rear. Made an average of 112ft. Offical reports of 110ft.

So for the FRS, a average of 115ft stock compared to those 2 performance models, you can see that those factory brakes are holding up VERY well. And all you have to do is improve it, is pads, fluid, lines, ducting, tires. and im betting that you would be averaging 110-112ft with very minimal fade. All on factory equipment that is easy to maintain. and mind you that also those 2 cars are already track ready.

Point well taken. Thanks for the excellent post.

For me the bigger brakes were more to combat fade/overheating as I thought they would deal with the added heat better. I always thought the stopping distance was great on the stock car, especially with upgraded tires. But the higher speeds you are going to see with a turbo led me to believe the brakes would be getting hot faster, and perhaps a big brake kit would be of assistance in this regard.

Sounds like pads, lines and fluid are the place to start. And maybe even stop. I am concerned the STi Brembos will alter the cars brake bias in such a way as to induce over/under steer on corner entry. Time will tell as more people mod their brakes and add turbos I suppose.

[wootwoot]

Originally Posted by celica73

Turbo, HPDE? I give you 3 laps at the HPDE before you park the car. I would expect some reliability issues for the first few events. Stock brakes are fine for HPDE to start. Get some good pads.

Just because you have a turbo doesn't mean that you *need* to use 100% of it's capability on track. Look at the letters HPDE

High
Performance
Drivers
Education

Notice no "R" in there for "race." There is no trophy.

That said, I wouldn't bother spending more than it takes to get STi brakes on there.

Scott

No trophy indeed. But going fast is fun... and I don't care how much faster or slower everyone else is going. That being said, I'm not going to try and destroy my everyday driver at the track. lol.

[RYU]

I agree with a few things you're implying but I wouldn't have been a Debbie Downer about it though! haha

FI doesn't mean you'll be necessarily faster at the track. On the street, yes, almost always. At the track...? I see more slow guys in FI get beat by faster guys in the same car NA. Happens a lot in the NSX community.

FI also means less reliability and other issues you may not be prepared to deal with. FI puts a strain on almost ALL components. If you start going to HPDE you'll notice it's really more about preservation and keeping your temps cool. I can always tell when a guy is about tracking or about HP. The track guy prioritizes oil pressure, coolant/oil temps, etc.. a HP guy prioritizes AFR, Fuel Press, etc... If you're FI and a track rat.. well, be prepared! It'll get complicated.

Originally Posted by celica73

Turbo, HPDE? I give you 3 laps at the HPDE before you park the car. I would expect some reliability issues for the first few events. Stock brakes are fine for HPDE to start. Get some good pads.

Just because you have a turbo doesn't mean that you *need* to use 100% of it's capability on track. Look at the letters HPDE

High
Performance
Drivers
Education

Notice no "R" in there for "race." There is no trophy.

That said, I wouldn't bother spending more than it takes to get STi brakes on there.

Scott

[JRitt]

There are some additional advantages to a big brake kit that haven't been yet discussed in this thread:

Weight/Rotating Mass
The competition brake systems we are putting together using AP Racing components are 5 to 10 lbs. less unsprung weight per front corner vs. the OEM equipment. Our smaller Sprint system knocks 20 lbs. off the nose of the car, improving overall F/R weight distribution. At this time, I don't believe weight reduction of that magnitude is possible via aftermarket wheels/tires or suspension on this car.

There are a whole body of work out there discussing the merits of lightweight wheels, and the importance of low rotating mass. The same is true of brake discs. A heavier brake disc is more difficult to accelerate, just as a heavier wheel is. On a low powered car such as these, lower mass is even more critical.

Adding horsepower improves your power-to-weight ratio. Saving weight also improves your power-to-weight ratio, but also makes the car handle better, it's easier on tires, easier on brakes, more fuel efficient, etc.

Spares/Long-term running costs
While there is a higher initial cost of a big brake kit vs. simply upgrading the pads and discs, the long-terming running costs of a brake system are sometimes actually cheaper.

Track compounds in the pad shape we use in our brake systems are less expensive than the same compound in the OEM FR-S/BRZ shape. They also have a 50% thicker friction puck. Since the discs in the system are far superior, the pads will also be running cooler. All of that adds up to far superior wear rates per pad set. Let's say the pads for our system are $175, while the OEM are $225. If you would normally go through 4 sets of OEM shape pads in a season, that's $900 in pads. If you only go through 3 sets of pads with our system, that's $525, a savings of $375. Over three seasons, that's $1,125 in pad savings alone. That is already half of the initial investment in a kit, and that doesn't factor in any of the other benefits.

Disc replacements for BBK's are obviously more expensive, but it's a similar situation. The discs in our system are going to last far longer than an OEM or OEM-style replacement disc. They have tons of features specifically designed to deal with track temperatures, including specialized crack resistant metallurgy. For every few sets of OEM style discs you go through, you'll use one set of the AP discs. I just had a customer on the vette forum post that he got two full seasons out of one pair of our discs. He went on to say he had 3 dozen cracked OEM discs in his garage...lol!

Because overall system temperatures will remain lower with a big brake kit, you will be putting a lot less heat into your brake fluid, and will likely have to bleed your brakes a lot less. Racing brake fluid isn't cheap.

Wear and Tear
If you've ever tracked a car much, you know that there is a lot of wear and tear on parts surrounding the brakes. A ton of heat is built up in the area of the bearings, ball joints, etc. Running a big brake system keeps overall temperatures lower. Also, the aluminum had on the discs is better at keeping heat out of the bearing area.

Convenience, Enjoyment, and Track Time
This is one huge factor that always seems to be overlooked...if you've ever been lying under the car in the pits bleeding your brakes while your friends are zooming by, it just plain sucks. If you've ever driven half a session, and then your brakes started to fade, right when you were getting in the groove and setting your best times...it sucks. If you were playing cat and mouse with a friend and you have to let up because your brakes are flaking out...it sucks. Track time is expensive. You want to use it having fun and driving hard, not babying your brakes and *****footing around. A sorted, track optimized brake system allows you to forget about the brakes and just drive. You'll also spend less time bleeding, and you probably won't feel the need to tote as many spares around.

Resale value of car and brake system
If you try to sell your car in five years, and your OEM calipers are a burnt mess, that's likely going to cause some concern for the buyer. That's why most of the Porsche guys with PCCB's still run aftermarket iron disc systems at the track. They put the OEM ceramics in a box, and put them back on the car when they sell it.
Additionally, a brake system from a top-tier manufacturer holds its value fairly well on the used market. I've seen some of our kits sell for 60+% of their original price. That means you pay $2000-$2500, gain all the benefits of the system for the years you own it, then get $1200 back on them when you sell them. Between the resale value and the consumable savings, you're basically covered on the total cost of the system.

Feel/Confidence
Along the same lines to some of what I wrote above, having confidence in your brakes is an awesome feeling on track. It allows you to focus on everything else going on out there. Having confidence allows you to push harder and improve your driving. If you're in a competitive situation (Time attack or wheel-to-wheel), this can make a huge difference in the outcome.

Initial Cash Outlay
If you plan to buy front and rear race pads, SS lines, good fluid, and a duct kit, you're probably looking at what, $750? What do you have to show for it? Pads and SS lines are consumable items.

Many of the things I noted above are outside of, or in addition to, what most people typically associate with a big brake system. Do you absolutely NEED a big brake kit. No, particularly if you only drive on the street. The OEM brakes will stop the car. If you look carefully at the situation however, a BBK becomes a more logical purchase than you originally thought. People tend to dwell on the upfront investment of $2k, but you have to look deeper than that to understand what you're really getting long-term. In my opinion, if you plan to track your car regularly and keep it for 3 years or longer, a quality BBK makes a whole lot of sense.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Generally if you run r-compound tires you should start at least thinking about a BBK. You can get away with race pads and fluid but you'll be happier and more worry-free if you step up to a quality BBK like JRitts AP kit.

If you run sticky street tires it will still help for the reason's JRitt mentioned, but if it's only an occasional HPDE car than you have less to worry about with just pads and fluid.

- Andrew

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Generally if you run r-compound tires you should start at least thinking about a BBK. You can get away with race pads and fluid but you'll be happier and more worry-free if you step up to a quality BBK like JRitts AP kit.

If you run sticky street tires it will still help for the reason's JRitt mentioned, but if it's only an occasional HPDE car than you have less to worry about with just pads and fluid.

- Andrew

Hey, would you mind expanding on the LGT rotor upgrade? Are they direct bolt on just thicker?

Thanks

[mnsayer]

So if you are running a 350hp car mainly on the street and tracking it twice a year, what is the recommended breaks? Im leaning towards Brembo but I dont want breaks that will ruin my street driving experience.

[JRitt]

Holy back from the dead Batman!

I finished my FT86 Brake Upgrade Guide a while back. Check it out...should answer some questions.

So if you are running a 350hp car mainly on the street and tracking it twice a year, what is the recommended breaks? Im leaning towards Brembo but I dont want breaks that will ruin my street driving experience.

Front Brakes
I'd recommend first trying just pads (Ferodo DS2500 street, Ferodo DS1.11 track), Spiegler SS brake lines, and fluid (AP Racing Super 600) and seeing if that does the trick for you. It will on the street for sure. If you start running into fade on the track, your next step would be brake ducts, and then a Big Brake Kit. If you want to keep your stock wheels for either street or track, our AP Racing Factory BBK is a great option and will fit OEM wheels without a spacer.

Rear Brakes
Unless you have deep pockets or really want the look of a rear brake kit, just do pads and lines on the rear of the car. You won't recoup your money in performance gains on the rear of the car...it's an area of diminishing returns. The FT86 is fairly easy on the rear brakes (even with a turbo).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by mnsayer

So if you are running a 350hp car mainly on the street and tracking it twice a year, what is the recommended breaks? Im leaning towards Brembo but I dont want breaks that will ruin my street driving experience.

Large capacity brakes with aggressive street pads, to preserve the experience.

Stock brakes with race pads would work, but you probably won't like them on the street.

Are you willing to swap pads on and off JUST for the track day?

[celica73]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Are you willing to swap pads on and off JUST for the track day?

This.

I've got dedicated track pad and rotors. It's less than an hour of work to swap them out before a track event. Best of both worlds.

Depending on the pads you run, you could just swap the pads (the different pads just need to be compatible with each other).

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by mnsayer

So if you are running a 350hp car mainly on the street and tracking it twice a year, what is the recommended breaks? Im leaning towards Brembo but I dont want breaks that will ruin my street driving experience.

Get better pads and fluid/lines as others have stated... but to improve braking performance, be sure to not go cheap on tires and get quality rubber.

Your brakes are only as good as your tires.

-alex

[mrk1]

I've been running the Stoptech 328 kit and love it. With the higher heat capacity a street pad will last much longer then on the stock setup.

There is definelty lots of stopping power.