Still can't decide on AT or MT for your first FRS/BRZ? This may help...

[Mburolla]

Originally Posted by krea.tion

I swore I would only get the MT but I have to consider all the pros and cons and the decision is VERY tough.

It was a really tough decision for me too. I tossed and turned all week, literally didn't get any sleep. I decided to go with the AT and I have absolutely no regrets. The paddle shifters make me feel like I'm driving a Ferrari 458, something I'll never own. There's nothing wrong with living a tiny fantasy every time you drive. I'm not sure the MT could provide the same escapism.

[smbrm]

just posted some recent AT observations at:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=49

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

I've drawn the line on where you should decide on the MT/AT issues before in other threads now buried lol! Pretty lengthy too.
But here is the thing, the AT on this car has seen just as much development time or more than the MT, to not spoil the fun factor while adding a multi-role task to this car.


I'd break it down for you in the following checklist:

Choose Manual:


If you are a very strict track guy who has resources and wishes to play with final drive differnential gear ratios, and absolutely hate to not have a 3rd pedal to run though gears.

If you love shifting even in traffic, just to be that much proficient and aspiring to become an all-around performance driver, especially if you are new and not without the high level or history of racing cars in competition.

If you just love manual without doubts and don't even want to think about the AT
If you have driven the FRS in manual paddle and still don't like it as much.
If this is a part-time car that you have an alternate car for daily use.
If this is something you want purely as replacement of what the original AE86 had to offer in direct adherence to intrinsic nature of cars.
If you are making a race car.
If you do want to learn how to drift, or making a drift car.
If you want to learn how to clutch-kick your tail loose, and eventually breaking a tooth or two in the driveline, in doing so as an amateur and riding on so called Performance Tires.
If you are a pro-drifter who can and NEED to clutch kick to win Formula D, and sponsors are flipping the bill for broken trannies.
If you can't ever be seen with a AT among your peers.

Manual is in essence the ultimate driving experience, bar none, no argument there! IF you are so inclined to get the "BEST" of FRS!

Choose Semi-Automatic Digital Shifting AT, if you want "MOST" out of an FRS)

If you have a multi-role task for this car with commutes, and even lending the car occasionally to folks.
If you appreciate modern drivetrain that is much more sophisticated than older traditional MT.
If you want to learn how to drive exotic cars like Lamborghini or Ferrari, and even LFA's as those are now mostly e-shft cars as well.
And let me add that the FRS's AT system/software/actuation is so precise and intuitive that despite the torque converter design being very different mechanically from those of twin clutched e-Shifts on exotics, the actual driving feel and timing is very similar and quite useful in the raceway as well.
If you want to learn how to drift. (yes I said this again, because this AT in full-no-nannies mode is very much capable of sliding gracefully into corner apexes and doing donuts around cones with Torsen LSD equipped on all FRS)
If you have a dumb foot that can't seem to learn how to heel/toe under FULL braking, sliding on all fours, and during your flight to an apex (or into a wall of Turn 10 at Laguna Seca, at alarming speeds) in a MT despite your best efforts.
If you like having the third button on your center console than a blank piece of plastic by your shifter.
If you already had your share of learning to drive competitively, and you know what the heck you are doing on a racetrack.
If you don't know what the heck you are doing but you want to look better on the racetrack.
And you have the time to explain what the hell I am writing in detail here, to every damn person that asks "YOU OF ALL PEOPLE got and AUTOMATIC????" LOL!!!

very interesting presentation!,however it begs the question,what happens when the 'slush" box "breaks out of warranty? are you going to give me the money to repair it? my point is,no matter how good it is,it is way more "complicated than a stick,and as such IF it breaks,one will be hit with one hell of a repair bill,unlike the stick,which is sooo simple in design and execution that if you ;KNOW how to shift and stay 'OFF' the clutch will ltierally last forever!..just sayin'
__

Unlike the normal traditional AT, this one is bred of performance driving, and as such, in one of the 5 modes of programming combination of VSC, TRC and shifting, the car will become fully manual to the point where you can ride the rev-limit and destroy your engine just as in a MT. And not shift till you tell it to. It will also allow downshifting with more precision than in a manual, and with less driveline shock, which may be of benefit for those already seasoned in performance driving.

And for me, this is my first FRS, and one which I will drive EVERY DAY for daily use of all reasons I have a car for in my life to get to places. It is not my dedicated race car, which my old faithful AE86 will now be able to become because of this car's arrival. And when it is time for me to build a track dedicated FRS in the future, I will buy one in a few years, used, and out of warranty as I will hack that to my desires and really make use of the platform that is so excellent.

I don't have a need to pretend being a 1980's driver, when all modern F1 and WRC Rally cars also have no clutch pedals and relies on digital programmed brains and hydraulics to make things go faster. Especially in a car that is born in 2012.

Still, I will buy and have both eventually, as FT86 siblings are something I have been working on with the Chief Engineer Tada for the last 5 years, if very little as speaking my opinions, and having him listen, and answering questions he may have had. And as such, it is possibly the first and the last car that I had such opportunity, as a common folk...living outside of Corporate R&D labs.

This is why I chose the Automatic. It's something appropriate in 2012, and for many of us, a more advanced and versatile form of a manual transmission to allow many things without much compromise at all.

Lastly, you may have noticed that the AT has a much taller gear at 6th, and wider gaps in those gears under it. While in theory, (for the numerical stats geeks) it provides for a more ideal way to deliver power, you need to remember that closer the gears are packed, the more busy you are on the track shifting through them.

I found the MT almost challengingly busy on the raceway, and unless I have driven this thing for weeks, my body's natural muscle memory lacking was a handicap for the one day I only had on the track. This explains why most journalists at the event were also posting similar or faster laps with the paddle shift mode of the AT. And I'm no foreigner to MT shifting on the track, having won a few shiny sticks on wood in SCCA with many cars.

With this smart AT, one can concentrate on the delicate balancing of the contact patch on this very peaky and ultra responsive car if you can let the transmission do its thing, as long as the AT is doing it well enough according to your intuitive timing on the track. And this one does.

The ratio from 1-4th are pretty close to the MT, and if you know racing on tracks with 200hp lightweight cars, 1-4th are the only gears you'd use for racetracks anyway, outside of very big tracks like Laguna Seca or Super Speedway based infields. So argument about 5th and 6th being away from 4th is sort of a moot point for most enthusiasts as well. At medium speed Spring Mountain Racepark, where fastest trap in the straight was about 104mph, it was still in the middle of 4th gear and only for 2-3 seconds before dropping to 3rd again. Get what I mean?

Also on the more mundane side of the deal, the ultra tall 6th gear proved to be very quiet on the highway, revving almost 800rpm less in cruise than in the MT at 85mph (the usual Interstate rural highway speeds in the USA). And fuel consumption also will reflect this as well.

So there you have it. You can perhaps print this out and keep it in the car, if you choose what I call this a "SPORTS SMART Semi-AUTO" in case you run into a muscle head who gives you crap about that PRND-M on your center console.

I sincerely hope that this can help your decision-making, and help you head over to the Scion dealership faster, so that the precious 1500 or so units allocated for each month of BRZ/FRS for the US of A, will end up in your garage, and you spend more time on the road with a smile on your face, than lurking here on the forums wondering what it is like...

Whatever you choose, do it, as once the FRS hits TV commercials and are seen on the road, your order will be backed up by several months, I suspect. In Japan, the wait-list is now November as of May, and growing, if that's any hint that you should really hurry.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I appreciate you breaking it down for people, but as someone who has DD'd a manual transmission car for the last 13 years in NYC and NC I have to say that most of your "reasons to get the AT" are flat out wrong.

I'm sorry but this car is borderline underpowered as it is. Equipping the car with an automatic transmission is only going to sap away more power from the engine and making matters even worse the AT has taller gearing. The taller gearing alone should tell you that Toyota designed the AT for people with lesser sporting intentions.

i agree! remember no matter how good the "slush box" is,you STILL have to deal with "slippage" and this "dilutes" power,and you lose torque at the low end! all automatics 'slip"
because they operate in an "oil bath" this "fact" is something that cannot be "engineered" out!..just sayin'

Originally Posted by whtchocla7e

As someone who will never see the track (not into it), I will enjoy manual shifting.

The AT in my current VW is so dumb that I'd sworn to get a manual next time. This stupid automated piece of machinery will do anything to get into the max gear. God forbid I take my foot off the accelerator while it tries to shift up - my face lands on the windshield.

Yes, I know the technology has improved and my AT is no comparison to that of a modern sport car's but a machine will never predict what I want to do and when I want to do it. And I don't give a crap what they want to do - not gonna drive the way some fool programmed me at the factory.

yes ! you do sacrifice control over the car,and who the hell wants to be slave to a computer?this car begs for the manual! total control and you are the boss! amen!

[poudre]

Originally Posted by reni

AT is good for people who have some sort of physical disability. That's about it.

I used to think that too. After having many manual cars (Including 5 new manual Corvettes over the years + 1 2006 auto), I no longer give a crap about being "engaged" with the car. I want to be bored as I drive along with the air on and the sounds up.

I have had, and continue to have liter bikes if I feel the need to not be bored.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by reni

AT is good for people who have some sort of physical disability. That's about it.

I used to think something along those lines. Then, I drove Moto-P's FR-S AT. What is comes down to for me is that the AT allows me to drive a slightly different way and concentrate on slightly different things. Both are good. It would be fun to have both (as I think Moto-P intends to do).


P.S. Someone above mentioned "having control over the car." A well-developed AT gives you excellent control over the car. If it does not, then, obviously, another choice needs to be made.

[Philly]

Yawn. This debate is really getting old.

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by Philly

Yawn. This debate is really getting old.

Good of you to contribute your input...instead of just ignoring the thread like a nice little boy.

[TurnOne]

Great information and a great argument or case made for choosing the AT over the MT.
I think deep down many of you who choose the AT feel better about your decision after reading this. I also believe it will help you with your response when practically everyone questions your judgment as to buy this car with an AT.
Like many have said, the 6spd manual in this car is rated well and I would agree that it is really nice.
Car was built and marketed as a back to basics sports car. Basic sports car = manual transmission.
My personal decision was to MT because I like MT over automatics. Simply as that. They keep me engaged. They are more fun. They let me have more control.
My only gripe is that 6th gear is not geared taller. I'd love a car that rev's to 2K at 70mph. I'll happily downshift for hills or passing.
Chris

[gmookher]

Its one thing when someone PROFICIENT at manual decides they want a stick

Most drivers who are not strong drivers, if you want to learn HOW to drive, a stick will give you better theory and improve your timing, technique and skillz


If youre on the fence cause you arent a good stick driver you will never become one unless you EARN the rights of passage owning and driving a stick

[Kmurph]

Really good info Moto-P!!, I myself have chosen the AT and am still awaiting its arrival.

Can you run the car all the way up to red line in manual mode with assists still on?? or will it only let you red line when all assists are off and in sport mode??

[LeftFootBrake]

Originally Posted by Kmurph

Can you run the car all the way up to red line in manual mode with assists still on??

Yes.

[Captain Insano]

Just searched for reviews on the AT and found this and read it...

First of all, I LOVE MT cars. I have owned and driven them on all sports cars I've owned (two STi, WRX, Audi S4 Avant). I first owned a paddle shifter car when I had a Honda Fit. I bought AT for that car because I have a wife that scares me when she drives stick because she is scared to shift gears and is hard on the gears, so I don't let her drive my MT cars. But, in a pinch she sometimes needs to drive my cars. So in the Honda I really started to like the paddle shifter. Its power was anemic, but it was tossable and the response actually wan't too bad in paddle shift mode when I was hammering it (all things considered for a 100 hp car).

So when I started looking at FRS/BRZ I was very open minded and looked at the AT. All I can say is WOW... WOW... The FRS/BRZ AT is in a different stratosphere than any paddle shifter I've driven (lots of semi sporty cars I've driven paddle shift besides the Honda Fit I owned). It can be adjusted as the orginal poster (OP) indicated. Actually, even driving the FRS/BRZ AT in sport mode without the paddle shifting is bad ass as OP mentioned. It shifts extremely aggressively like a race tuned AT. And I was actually shocked to find out that when I nailed it in sport mode without the paddle shifting on the highway it was revving up to nearly redline super aggressively. Haha... I drove it for an extra half hour after I found that out and it was total bliss.

Some purists might not like the idea of AT, but you should listen to the OP... I agree with every word he said. The AT on this car is fabulous and adjustable to however you want to drive the car.

[shu5892001]

I bought a manual because I want to potentially turbo my car, which I have no confidence for the reliability for the auto...

[RYU]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

Just searched for reviews on the AT and found this and read it...

First of all, I LOVE MT cars. I have owned and driven them on all sports cars I've owned (two STi, WRX, Audi S4 Avant). I first owned a paddle shifter car when I had a Honda Fit. I bought AT for that car because I have a wife that scares me when she drives stick because she is scared to shift gears and is hard on the gears, so I don't let her drive my MT cars. But, in a pinch she sometimes needs to drive my cars. So in the Honda I really started to like the paddle shifter. Its power was anemic, but it was tossable and the response actually wan't too bad in paddle shift mode when I was hammering it (all things considered for a 100 hp car).

So when I started looking at FRS/BRZ I was very open minded and looked at the AT. All I can say is WOW... WOW... The FRS/BRZ AT is in a different stratosphere than any paddle shifter I've driven (lots of semi sporty cars I've driven paddle shift besides the Honda Fit I owned). It can be adjusted as the orginal poster (OP) indicated. Actually, even driving the FRS/BRZ AT in sport mode without the paddle shifting is bad ass as OP mentioned. It shifts extremely aggressively like a race tuned AT. And I was actually shocked to find out that when I nailed it in sport mode without the paddle shifting on the highway it was revving up to nearly redline super aggressively. Haha... I drove it for an extra half hour after I found that out and it was total bliss.

Some purists might not like the idea of AT, but you should listen to the OP... I agree with every word he said. The AT on this car is fabulous and adjustable to however you want to drive the car.

Man oh man... I completely agree with you. I just got done putting 1300 miles on my 6AT and this transmission is SOPHISTICATED. There's simply no other one word to describe it.

I'm taking notes and i'll write up a full review of the 6AT soon.

Here's one of my many testimonials I'll share for now:
We did a canyon run this morning. On the way back down I got a little tired after already done 100 miles of twisties so I shifted out of "M" and gave the paddles a rest. I still kept it in "Sport" mode but also left it in "D" (geez, these stock tires are no good). As I began to notice differences between regular D vs. D w/ Sport mode, I quickly started hitting the apexes hard again because it was just too much fun! It knows exactly when to rev-match downshift as you begin turn-in and begin to apply moderate brake pressure before coming into the turn. Sure, we all know it rev-match downshifts when you tell it to via the paddles but what surprised me was it did it all on its own when driving aggressively in Sport mode. It also knows to hold a gear and maintains engine braking when you want it to. In many instances I find it shifted better than I did. I could swear it is learning my shifting patterns. It's totally aggressive when you need it to be. Jekyl and Hyde is a good way to describe. As I got back into town where cars were.. it was time to turn off Sport mode and it was as docile as can be. There's just no drama with this 6AT. It just works. The Sport mode is no joke. It might as well be called Race mode.

It's a whole new world out there. With the advent of such good traction control and DBR (drive by wire) technology it's really amazing what these new automatics can do.

This is no PDK or DSG but it doesn't beat you up like one either. I found no instance when I thought the torque converter/valve body trans shifted too slow. I'll admit, it's no replacement for a MT at all. I'll be the first to tell you that but it's a completely different, equally rewarding experience. At the track, if both Final Drives between the 6AT and 6MT were the same (they're not), I think i'd be a good 2+ secs per lap faster in the 6AT.

All this for an extra $1,100 and 50lbs. TOTALLY WORTH IT.