FastLaneDaily talks about Scion's FRS

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Dimman

They may have won the fight for the FT86 though.

Their numbers in 2010 were less than 30,000 for the year. How is that worth keeping?

Perhaps it's not about the numbers of Scions for this year or last year. Perhaps it's about future years, or the number of people that are going to also buy other Toyota's in the future.

Originally Posted by Dimman

The other part of what isn't really talked about is where the dealers figure into it.

It's fine for Toyota/Scion to say they don't need numbers, but what is the motivation for the dealers? The dealers actually have a significant influence on their parent companies.

That's debatable how much influence they have over Toyota. America is a big market, but we rarely seem to get the cars/trucks we really want that other countries have. I'm pretty sure the Dealers have been very vocal about getting Diesels. Especially those that sell in more rural areas and sell a lot of trucks.

As for Scion, Toyota dealers don't have to sell Scions. It's a choice. So there's that.

Originally Posted by Dimman

And dealers are about: ease of sales, and money. I think a 200 hp 2.0L FR-S vs a 180 hp 2.5L tC doesn't make sense to a dealer unless they can make a lot of money on it.

Some are, some are about volume. Sell as much as possible for a little profit.

Also how do you figure that? They are two very different cars. By that logic selling a Corolla Type S alongside a Base Model Camry doesn't make sense. But they do because there different market segments.

Also they don't have to make a lot of money off the sale. They can make their money on the maintenance of the car. People who own sports cars are generally willing to spend more to have the dealer service them, and pay for premium services like Synthetic Oil.

It's also a draw to get people in the door.

Originally Posted by Dimman

So what does that mean to the FR-S for pricing and sales figures?

Not much I would imagine.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Do the dealers:

A: Ask for a big profit margin (higher MSRP) because they don't expect to sell them (but want to make a sizeable amount of money when they do), and will just use it to attract shoppers and then try to sell them tC's which they have more experience doing?

Or B: Do they ask for it to be priced lower so they can move a lot of them at the expense of tC sales?

Hmmm...?

You're not making sense here. You don't bait and switch someone into a cheaper car. To use the Corolla/Camry analogy again. That's like using a Camry to get them in the door to sell them a Corolla.

There will be a few lost sales of tC's to FT's. But overall people who are interested in the FT aren't in the market to buy a tC and vice versa. The tC is a sporty commuter car. The FT is a sports car. There going to be marketed differently.

I don't see this hurting Scion dealerships at all. Anytime you get increased interest and foot traffic that's a good thing. Dealers now-a-days don't make much money off a sale. They make money on all the extras and the service to the car afterwords.

[dalli]

ok thats good, now keep the same body style since they wont be producing a lot of cars now.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Flip

I don't see why ease of disassembly has any influence on quality.

It's one of it's selling points. Customizable..... etc.

Ah well, some people don't like Scion. They can dislike/hate Scion all they want. But they'll be selling this car.

[4agze]

wow first time seen that video, is that how bad scion is as a brand for other people? sure I see scion 90% as a show car crowd but to hate it as if its not toyota

[Dark]

I think all Toyotas designed and built from 2003-2008ish are crappy. My dad's 04 Camry is poorly built compare to his old 1999 Camry and my friend's 1993 Land Cruiser.
I think tC would got that influence too, but not old xB, I guess.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Perhaps it's not about the numbers of Scions for this year or last year. Perhaps it's about future years, or the number of people that are going to also buy other Toyota's in the future.

They managed 170,000 one year. Now 30,000. That's significant. The FT86/FR-S isn't going to fix the underlying problems that contributed to this.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

That's debatable how much influence they have over Toyota. America is a big market, but we rarely seem to get the cars/trucks we really want that other countries have. I'm pretty sure the Dealers have been very vocal about getting Diesels. Especially those that sell in more rural areas and sell a lot of trucks.

Maybe, maybe not. The rural dealerships have probably very little influence as their sales are way less than the major urban centers. The ratio of trucks to cars may be high, but overall numbers are still very small. That being said, given gas prices lately it could happen if all the big dealers feel there's enough of a demand for super fuel efficient cars coming. My buddy would be all over a diesel Yaris as a commuter.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

As for Scion, Toyota dealers don't have to sell Scions. It's a choice. So there's that.

If they think they can make more money, they will go for it. A lot of the major dealers don't only stick to one brand/company.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Some are, some are about volume. Sell as much as possible for a little profit.

Dealers will often shift with the market. Economy-wise, sometimes they don't have a choice. There was talk that Scion dealers are a hurting a bit with the pure pricing when the economy sinks, as they can't discount to move old inventory.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Also how do you figure that? They are two very different cars. By that logic selling a Corolla Type S alongside a Base Model Camry doesn't make sense. But they do because there different market segments.

To the average buyer, they are both sport coupes. They both have 4 cylinder motors. There's not a huge difference in power. They both drive 2 wheels. And God forbid if they even end up weighing close to the same... Joe Average and Suzie Secretary aren't really concerned about the different driving dynamics between FWD and RWD.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Also they don't have to make a lot of money off the sale. They can make their money on the maintenance of the car. People who own sports cars are generally willing to spend more to have the dealer service them, and pay for premium services like Synthetic Oil.

Debatable. I, and the guys I know, don't opt for dealer service. It's not a good value, and there's too much uncertainty in what you're getting. But we use our own torque wrenches on our wheels so maybe we're too anal.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

It's also a draw to get people in the door.



Not much I would imagine.



You're not making sense here. You don't bait and switch someone into a cheaper car. To use the Corolla/Camry analogy again. That's like using a Camry to get them in the door to sell them a Corolla.

Umm? Who's not making sense? It's called a halo car, and the concept has been applied since, well since a long time ago.

As for the Camry-Corolla example. Dealers are selfish, money sucking, liars. They don't care about what you want. They care about selling what is best for them. If they've had a Corolla that's been sitting for a while, and you come in looking for a Camry in a colour they don't have on the lot, guess what they will do? Try to locate a Camry for you from another dealer? Not in your life, they will pimp the living shit out of that Corolla that's been on the lot for 6 weeks.

Even if they have a Camry in the colour you want on the lot, but you hum and haw on the price, they will pimp that Corolla. If you show any indication that you are not specifically planning on buying a Camry that very instant, they will promote any piece of inventory on their lot that isn't moving. They know that the Camry will likely sell to someone else, but if a potential buyer has a specter of doubt they will throw anything that isn't currently making money at the potential buyer.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

There will be a few lost sales of tC's to FT's. But overall people who are interested in the FT aren't in the market to buy a tC and vice versa. The tC is a sporty commuter car. The FT is a sports car. There going to be marketed differently.

This is naive. The tC is marketed as a sports car. Most people don't differentiate between a real 'sports car' and a 'sporty car'. After the initial 'be the first on the block' sales rush of the new model, I see the tC taking sales away from the FR-S. With the driving dynamics out of the picture for most buyers, the general specs of the tC and the FR-S are too similar for Joe Average or Suzie Secretary to pay the price premium for the FR-S. To the average buyer will be paying and extra what $4k-$5k for 20hp and better looks be worth it?

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

I don't see this hurting Scion dealerships at all. Anytime you get increased interest and foot traffic that's a good thing. Dealers now-a-days don't make much money off a sale. They make money on all the extras and the service to the car afterwords.

I think that there is too much overlap with the tC to average buyers. The dealers will see a sales increase, but I think that a stronger separation (Scion tC vs Toyota FT86) would lead to higher combined sales. As for not making money off sales, I believe that is a dealer-driven myth. If they don't make money, why be in the business?

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Dark

I think all Toyotas designed and built from 2003-2008ish are crappy. My dad's 04 Camry is poorly built compare to his old 1999 Camry and my friend's 1993 Land Cruiser.
I think tC would got that influence too, but not old xB, I guess.

Owning an '03 I'd beg to differ. At 104,000 miles not a single manufacturer problem. Although the transmission is shitty.

[ToyotaObsession]

Originally Posted by Dimman

They managed 170,000 one year. Now 30,000. That's significant. The FT86/FR-S isn't going to fix the underlying problems that contributed to this.

Over several years. Some of those problems are the economy and people who already bought a Scion and haven't upgraded yet. You gotta remember the Toyota Family has some of the longest ownership. Brands like Chevy survive on people upgrading every few years.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Maybe, maybe not. The rural dealerships have probably very little influence as their sales are way less than the major urban centers. The ratio of trucks to cars may be high, but overall numbers are still very small. That being said, given gas prices lately it could happen if all the big dealers feel there's enough of a demand for super fuel efficient cars coming. My buddy would be all over a diesel Yaris as a commuter.

I should have been more specific, Diesels in Trucks.

Diesels in Cars is a whole different ball of wax. But in Trucks people have been screaming for it in the Tundra since it was announced. People still swap in foreign Diesels into their SUV's and Trucks because we can't get them here.

In Rural areas there's people who might want a Tundra but without the towing power and fuel economy of a Diesel there's no way they'll buy one.

Originally Posted by Dimman

If they think they can make more money, they will go for it. A lot of the major dealers don't only stick to one brand/company.

Very true.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Dealers will often shift with the market. Economy-wise, sometimes they don't have a choice. There was talk that Scion dealers are a hurting a bit with the pure pricing when the economy sinks, as they can't discount to move old inventory.

Shift? As in what brands they carry or what vehicles they carry? Because that goes without saying in any retail business.

I'm not sure how that all works, because every Scion dealership I've been too will discount cars that aren't the current model year. Even if they are brand new.

Originally Posted by Dimman

To the average buyer, they are both sport coupes. They both have 4 cylinder motors. There's not a huge difference in power. They both drive 2 wheels. And God forbid if they even end up weighing close to the same... Joe Average and Suzie Secretary aren't really concerned about the different driving dynamics between FWD and RWD.

LOL, I have to disagree with you here. The first thing that people notice is the outside how the car looks. Not what's on the inside. The kind of person that will be drawn to a tC is a little different than one that will be instantly drawn to a FT.

Also this is the technology age. People know more about Cars now than they did 10 years ago. Before the internet you had to read a brochure or Magazine to find out about Cars. In 30 seconds I can pull up everything I need to know and 50 reviews on that Car right on my phone.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Debatable. I, and the guys I know, don't opt for dealer service. It's not a good value, and there's too much uncertainty in what you're getting. But we use our own torque wrenches on our wheels so maybe we're too anal.

There's no uncertainty, but it does cost more than independent shops.

Who's "we"? LOL I know plenty of people that want to do their own work. But as everything becomes more electronic it becomes harder to do unless you can talk the software's language. You might be able to get some Codes, etc. But you can't tune the motor.

No matter how anal you might be there's going to come a certain point where people just won't be able to work on their own cars anymore.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Umm? Who's not making sense? It's called a halo car, and the concept has been applied since, well since a long time ago.

As for the Camry-Corolla example. Dealers are selfish, money sucking, liars. They don't care about what you want. They care about selling what is best for them. If they've had a Corolla that's been sitting for a while, and you come in looking for a Camry in a colour they don't have on the lot, guess what they will do? Try to locate a Camry for you from another dealer? Not in your life, they will pimp the living shit out of that Corolla that's been on the lot for 6 weeks.

Even if they have a Camry in the colour you want on the lot, but you hum and haw on the price, they will pimp that Corolla. If you show any indication that you are not specifically planning on buying a Camry that very instant, they will promote any piece of inventory on their lot that isn't moving. They know that the Camry will likely sell to someone else, but if a potential buyer has a specter of doubt they will throw anything that isn't currently making money at the potential buyer.

LOL this was true.... 10 years ago. But not now. Like I said, I've got the entire internet in my pocket. If they don't want to get me the Camry I want in the Color I want. Guess what? I can find a dealership who will while they are talking to me.

The game has changed. Dealers know it. Customer service is much more of a priority now. Not only can I find out everything I need to know before I show up. But if I'm treated poorly I can leave a bad review about them on any number of websites google, foursquare, yahoo, etc.

This idea that they will lie, cheat, and steal to make a buck has hurt them. Now they are paying for it and have had to increase customer satisfaction just to stay in business.

Originally Posted by Dimman

This is naive. The tC is marketed as a sports car. Most people don't differentiate between a real 'sports car' and a 'sporty car'. After the initial 'be the first on the block' sales rush of the new model, I see the tC taking sales away from the FR-S. With the driving dynamics out of the picture for most buyers, the general specs of the tC and the FR-S are too similar for Joe Average or Suzie Secretary to pay the price premium for the FR-S. To the average buyer will be paying and extra what $4k-$5k for 20hp and better looks be worth it?

Most, perhaps not. But like I said, the initial look of the car is going to draw certain people in. People do care now about the difference.

I can't see the tC taking more than a few sales away from the FT. It's just not reasonable to assume they will. People know what they are looking for now. Every study shows that consumers are more educated about what they are buying before they buy it now. Especially big purchases. Because the information is easily and readily available to them. It's easy to pull the wool over someone's eyes when they don't know what you're talking about. But now they can't do that. I can find out exactly how much the Dealer paid for the car, how long it's been sitting there, and what the MSRP is before they even open their mouth.

Plus the features will be different. The FT is going to be a drivers car, it won't have a lot of the features a casual driver will be looking for. Also what about the ride? Someone who wants a easier ride probably won't like the harsh ride the FT will probably have. That's not "stealing" sales from the FT, it's not what the person wanted in the first place.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think that there is too much overlap with the tC to average buyers. The dealers will see a sales increase, but I think that a stronger separation (Scion tC vs Toyota FT86) would lead to higher combined sales. As for not making money off sales, I believe that is a dealer-driven myth. If they don't make money, why be in the business?

Lol I have to disagree there. There's hardly any overlap. The Camry/Corolla have more in common than the FT and the tC.

Because they do make money. Just not in the way they used too. I told you, it's a well known fact that because of easily available invoices anybody can find out exactly what the Dealer pays for the car and negotiate up from there. Back in the day you could hide what you paid for the car. Not true anymore.

So now like I said they make money off selling things to you after the sale, parts, labor, cleaning lol. Whatever extra stuff they can. That's why there's so much pressure to buy that extra warranty or that film etc.

There's tons of information on this out there.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Owning an '03 I'd beg to differ. At 104,000 miles not a single manufacturer problem. Although the transmission is shitty.

Is that 2003 design or it's just 2003 model? I know Toyota has bullet proof engine. My dad's '99 Lexus RX300 is 210K0ish now, it will run like a winner. My concern is about the fit and finish and materials used in the car. Although the interior of 2003 Camry is a bit crappy, it's better than 07 model's.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

The game has changed. Dealers know it. Customer service is much more of a priority now. Not only can I find out everything I need to know before I show up. But if I'm treated poorly I can leave a bad review about them on any number of websites google, foursquare, yahoo, etc.

This idea that they will lie, cheat, and steal to make a buck has hurt them. Now they are paying for it and have had to increase customer satisfaction just to stay in business.

For a Scion dealer? Maybe you can shop around in Hyundia, Kia, Scion dealership versus Lexus, Acura, Infiniti dealerships in your area to see what the real customer service is. You can leave millions of reviews on websites, but how many people will check google? Other people who are satisfied with customer service of that dealer(who like to leave a comment/review on the internet) will also counter your statement/comment.

I don't call it lying. They just use a concept "consumers don't know what they want, we tell then what they want." that concept might work a few years back, but as money has become tougher to earn, consumers has become more and more rational. They know exactly what they want and what will satisfy them most.

lastly, I would rather buy a car from the brand known as making bland and boring (matured) than get a car from a brand known as one of the highest percentage ricers in the automotive industry.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by DesertSpool

I really wondering if Toyota is worried about the quality of the engines here. everyone know Toyota engines are bullet proof, but Subbies? I'm not too sure.

It's a joint venture engine, so I think Toyota will also help developing the engine. Subby's reliability is also above average, but all-new engine, engineering might also have a lot of flaw for its first few years. It's safe to get the refreshed model.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Dark

Is that 2003 design or it's just 2003 model? I know Toyota has bullet proof engine. My dad's '99 Lexus RX300 is 210K0ish now, it will run like a winner. My concern is about the fit and finish and materials used in the car. Although the interior of 2003 Camry is a bit crappy, it's better than 07 model's.

Oh good point.

2003 model, made in 2002, originally designed in 1999 (or first released).

[Dark]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Oh good point.

2003 model, made in 2002, originally designed in 1999 (or first released).

That's the outcome of cost cutting. Toyota did the cost cutting twice last decade, and see how the cars in the lineup have gone? Crappy. Hopefully, the new quality control and feedback will help Toyota to design and make BETTER cars.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Over several years. Some of those problems are the economy and people who already bought a Scion and haven't upgraded yet. You gotta remember the Toyota Family has some of the longest ownership. Brands like Chevy survive on people upgrading every few years.

The peak was when they were targeting the 'trendy' buyers with their fancy marketing. You think those people are still in their old, no-longer-trendy rides? You think they've moved up to RAV4's and Highlanders?
They're selling on the value of the vehicles now, and it's not looking pretty. Plus they've got a recent influx of older fuel economy-conscious buyers. And they're still way down. The upgrading to new vehicles was a part of the Scion strategy. Start with Scion, move to Toyota.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

I should have been more specific, Diesels in Trucks.

Diesels in Cars is a whole different ball of wax. But in Trucks people have been screaming for it in the Tundra since it was announced. People still swap in foreign Diesels into their SUV's and Trucks because we can't get them here.

In Rural areas there's people who might want a Tundra but without the towing power and fuel economy of a Diesel there's no way they'll buy one.

I'm curious what Tundra total sales figures are against the whole. (Not disagreeing with you about it needing a diesel, though...)



*snip*

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Shift? As in what brands they carry or what vehicles they carry? Because that goes without saying in any retail business.

I'm not sure how that all works, because every Scion dealership I've been too will discount cars that aren't the current model year. Even if they are brand new.

I haven't personally set foot into a Scion dealer, but I've heard that the Pure Pricing is a two-way street. No mark ups, no discounts, even to the point where it was hurting them. Maybe have changed recently.

But I could just be repeating rumour. If anyone on here has personally been offered a discount on a Pure Price Scion, let me know.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

LOL, I have to disagree with you here. The first thing that people notice is the outside how the car looks. Not what's on the inside. The kind of person that will be drawn to a tC is a little different than one that will be instantly drawn to a FT.

It's still hard for people to pay a $4k-$5k (pure guesstimation on how much the FR-S will cost over a tC) price premium on looks alone.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Also this is the technology age. People know more about Cars now than they did 10 years ago. Before the internet you had to read a brochure or Magazine to find out about Cars. In 30 seconds I can pull up everything I need to know and 50 reviews on that Car right on my phone.

Yeah, because internet reviews are so accurate... Average person with a smart phone isn't going to get much more relevant info going through a bunch of soft car reviews, than they will from a dealer's brochure.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

There's no uncertainty, but it does cost more than independent shops.

No uncertainty from dealers? Sheesh, you really believe that? Buddy had to take a propane torch to get his lug nut off because the infallible dealer 'torqued' them on with an impact. Either the tech was retarded and didn't know or careless and didn't check the setting on the gun. I've heard many stories of other 'oversights'. Maybe the techs had a bad day, maybe they let the rookie do it. Who knows? But I'm not paying them to make mistakes. Yet they still do. I'll do it myself thank you very much.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Who's "we"? LOL I know plenty of people that want to do their own work. But as everything becomes more electronic it becomes harder to do unless you can talk the software's language. You might be able to get some Codes, etc. But you can't tune the motor.

All the fundamentals can be done. Scan tools are available.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

No matter how anal you might be there's going to come a certain point where people just won't be able to work on their own cars anymore.

If the dealerships have their way, yes.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

LOL this was true.... 10 years ago. But not now. Like I said, I've got the entire internet in my pocket. If they don't want to get me the Camry I want in the Color I want. Guess what? I can find a dealership who will while they are talking to me.

The game has changed. Dealers know it. Customer service is much more of a priority now. Not only can I find out everything I need to know before I show up. But if I'm treated poorly I can leave a bad review about them on any number of websites google, foursquare, yahoo, etc.

This idea that they will lie, cheat, and steal to make a buck has hurt them. Now they are paying for it and have had to increase customer satisfaction just to stay in business.

Still true. They just approach things differently now, and maybe need a contingency plan in case (god forbid...) the customer isn't just bluffing (again). You think they're afraid of some 1 star reviews on a website? How many of those do you take seriously? You have to wade through a crapload of 1 star "Don't go here!!!" and 5 star "This place is the best!!!" to find the real informative, semi-impartial reviews. You can also play a game and try to pick out which fawning reviews are actually from the reviewed business.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Most, perhaps not. But like I said, the initial look of the car is going to draw certain people in. People do care now about the difference.

I can't see the tC taking more than a few sales away from the FT. It's just not reasonable to assume they will. People know what they are looking for now. Every study shows that consumers are more educated about what they are buying before they buy it now. Especially big purchases. Because the information is easily and readily available to them. It's easy to pull the wool over someone's eyes when they don't know what you're talking about. But now they can't do that. I can find out exactly how much the Dealer paid for the car, how long it's been sitting there, and what the MSRP is before they even open their mouth.

I'm continuously amazed be people that are more serious about buying clothes than cars. Sometimes it has to do with how nervous people are about making big purchases, and for some reason they look to the sales rep to validate their choices or offer advice. I really don't understand it. It has nothing to do with information available, it's about if they bother to interpret the information. Most don't. Sales reps and dealers can still talk over the average 'educated' buyer. They train to.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Plus the features will be different. The FT is going to be a drivers car, it won't have a lot of the features a casual driver will be looking for. Also what about the ride? Someone who wants a easier ride probably won't like the harsh ride the FT will probably have. That's not "stealing" sales from the FT, it's not what the person wanted in the first place.

Doubtful that it will be harsh. The inexpensive hard-edged sports cars don't really exist anymore. Even the Miata is much softer than it used to be.

I'm not saying it should be soft, but the realities say it will not be as hard as it should.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Lol I have to disagree there. There's hardly any overlap. The Camry/Corolla have more in common than the FT and the tC.

And I absolutely disagree with your disagreement. But that probably doesn't matter. I would agree in a performance-oriented buyer context, but I'm (and have been, in case you thought otherwise) talking about the majority.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

Because they do make money. Just not in the way they used too. I told you, it's a well known fact that because of easily available invoices anybody can find out exactly what the Dealer pays for the car and negotiate up from there. Back in the day you could hide what you paid for the car. Not true anymore.

If you think the 'dealer invoice' figure you can get is actually what the dealer paid, you're absolutely delusional. Another tool in their sales arsenal.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

So now like I said they make money off selling things to you after the sale, parts, labor, cleaning lol. Whatever extra stuff they can. That's why there's so much pressure to buy that extra warranty or that film etc.

Another reason for them to push the cheaper tC if a buyer wants a 'sporty' car. Lower sticker means they can push more accessories, which are more profitable.

Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession

There's tons of information on this out there.

And misinformation, too.