Chris Harris Drive: GT86 / FR-S vs 370z vs Cayman S

[blu_]

Originally Posted by fatoni

soft from the factory is correct but then you look at other reviews (and my experience which isnt a big deal since i admit im biased) and you see people like pobst saying that once the car settles, its nothing but precise. all that aside i think what mazda did was genius. a softer car from the factory means a larger market. plus, enthusiasts are going to change suspension bits anyways. he absolutely does seem like a snob. i like my journalism to be without opinion and bias. sure its entertaining but it loses its objectivity

Well yeah, you should definitely take it for what it is. But to be fair, all journalists have opinions, but most are just good at hiding them more subtly in their review. I have always liked how much Harris just comes out says what he thinks. You can't deny he has great taste in cars, over all, and a huge depth of knowledge.

Maybe he just got dumped when he wrote that Miata review and hated the world

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by blu_

Well yeah, you should definitely take it for what it is. But to be fair, all journalists have opinions, but most are just good at hiding them more subtly in their review. I have always liked how much Harris just comes out says what he thinks. You can't deny he has great taste in cars, over all, and a huge depth of knowledge.

Maybe he just got dumped when he wrote that Miata review and hated the world

yeah, i take it with a grain of salt. i do think he is entertaining and makes many good points. its just the exaggerating that i cant stand. things like this and top gear are great for entertainment but when people start passing this stuff off as knowledge, it drives me nuts.

[blu_]

Agreed.

[Asterisked Accolade]

Originally Posted by shadoquad

Every group of car enthusiasts, devotees to whatever model, are going to have their share of pretentious fanboys. Haters gonna hate.

1.)But I know plenty of Z owners (and now plenty of FT86 owners thx to this board) who are just chill, laid back car guys. Those are the ones I gravitate to at meets and events anyway.

2.)But I disagree that it's always the "power" guys who are on a high horse. There are certainly a good number of those, but I've also seen enough of these guys pushing "ring times" and "0-60" statistics in people's faces. Who cares? Even handling numbers don't matter. Statistics don't equate to feel, and it's not always the fastest car that suits our needs the best. And if you think you're hot stuff today, a faster car will come out tomorrow.

We live in a pretty nice time to be performance car addicts, and I'm glad that Nissan still makes a Z and that Toyota and Subaru took the gamble and made RWD performance again. None of those companies "had to" make these cars.

1.)
Yes, those are the best people, IMO. Those who love cars no matter the stigmas or actions of certain subcultures. The people who at the end of the day, just appreciate cars and an open-minded passion for subjectivity.

2.)
I guess it's a bit different around here. I never get people bragging about lap times, it's always HP numbers. It's very immature and for a long time i held a disdain for car enthusiasts because i was always shunted into a d*ck measuring contest when introduced.

I presume someone belligerently boasting about lap times would be annoying as well, but at least that's a viable structure to house confidence. I don't view HP as a viable credential.

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by Asterisked Accolade

1.)
Yes, those are the best people, IMO. Those who love cars no matter the stigmas or actions of certain subcultures. The people who at the end of the day, just appreciate cars and an open-minded passion for subjectivity.

2.)
I guess it's a bit different around here. I never get people bragging about lap times, it's always HP numbers. It's very immature and for a long time i held a disdain for car enthusiasts because i was always shunted into a d*ck measuring contest when introduced.

I presume someone belligerently boasting about lap times would be annoying as well, but at least that's a viable structure to house confidence. I don't view HP as a viable credential.

Well, it varies. I agree that power is not everything. I do think high hp numbers are cool, but a better car they do not necessarily make. I just get equally annoyed when someone tells me, "You should buy X car because the Stig lapped the Top Gear Track faster in it than car Y." Or "A professional driver took X around the Nurburgring faster than Y."

Because I'm not the Stig. I'm not a 10/10ths driver. And neither, usually, is the person pointing to these lap times. In fact, it's surprising if the rag racer in question has ever even seen an AutoX track, let alone a hill climb, racing circuit, or drag strip.

It's cool to measure a car's capabilities, but that alone doesn't dictate my opinion or car purchase decision.

[cruzinbill]

The thing is, stock to stock a Z is faster than an 86, but what about when you turbo the 86. You then have a car that is about $1500 cheaper still and I think will easily hold its own.

I do agree with his points of likes and dislikes.... well all but the dash stuff, i dont see it as fake carbon, i see it as patterned T's, also I am glad the scions come with cloth seats.

[Asterisked Accolade]

Originally Posted by shadoquad

Well, it varies. I agree that power is not everything. I do think high hp numbers are cool, but a better car they do not necessarily make. I just get equally annoyed when someone tells me, "You should buy X car because the Stig lapped the Top Gear Track faster in it than car Y." Or "A professional driver took X around the Nurburgring faster than Y."

Because I'm not the Stig. I'm not a 10/10ths driver. And neither, usually, is the person pointing to these lap times. In fact, it's surprising if the rag racer in question has ever even seen an AutoX track, let alone a hill climb, racing circuit, or drag strip.

It's cool to measure a car's capabilities, but that alone doesn't dictate my opinion or car purchase decision.

Quoted for truth.

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

The thing is, stock to stock a Z is faster than an 86, but what about when you turbo the 86. You then have a car that is about $1500 cheaper still and I think will easily hold its own.

I do agree with his points of likes and dislikes.... well all but the dash stuff, i dont see it as fake carbon, i see it as patterned T's, also I am glad the scions come with cloth seats.

I'd rather wait and see on Subaru/Scion developing a stock turbo, personally. When you FI a car outside of warranty, that's a huge risk. When it's covered by warranty, well then game on And I believe that will happen with the 86 in a year or two.

But the 86 doesn't need extra power to compete right now. It competes strongly as a value proposition.

[Liquidsnake]

Originally Posted by jadewbj

Also where is the 370Z $28,000? Every time I watch Top Gear UK the prices for the cars are more than US. In US the 370Z starts at $33,120.

I had a 911 Targa and the parts for that thing were CRAZY expensive. Even oil changes required a credit check.

Thats the thing, I could afford to drive one, I just can't afford the up keep

FRS it was.

You know yesterday I was really pushing it for the first time. Weaving in and out of traffic on the freeway. Its the first time I heard the engine whistle. God I love this car. I hit 115, before I brought her back down.

Such an awesome car.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by fatoni

probably because that video is in every other thread on the boards. i think he speaks well but i feel like the guy has an opinion and then reviews cars heavily influenced by his prejudice. i just find it strange how someone who hates the miata and even says it isnt a sports car an it lacks power and then praises an frs because sports cars dont need power

I take his reviews with a mega grain of salt. He talks about how power isn't all that great yet he owns a 911 GT3 4.0 when he could've got the base model or a Cayman R for a lot less money.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

The thing is, stock to stock a Z is faster than an 86, but what about when you turbo the 86. You then have a car that is about $1500 cheaper still and I think will easily hold its own.

I do agree with his points of likes and dislikes.... well all but the dash stuff, i dont see it as fake carbon, i see it as patterned T's, also I am glad the scions come with cloth seats.

until its brakes go, the suspension is inadequate and the clutch gives way. there is already almost too much power for the tires on the frs. fixing the problems that aftermarket turbos create is expensive. thats not even addressing the fact that the z is a much more upscale environment and would come with a warranty

[cruzinbill]

Originally Posted by fatoni

until its brakes go, the suspension is inadequate and the clutch gives way. there is already almost too much power for the tires on the frs. fixing the problems that aftermarket turbos create is expensive. thats not even addressing the fact that the z is a much more upscale environment and would come with a warranty

Do you really believe that an extra 60 or so hp is that detrimental to the car? All the things you mentioned would be fine at that level. Aside from tires, which most people will be replacing with better ones when the time comes anyway.

As for a more upscale environment, thats all personal taste and opinion. I despise the interior and seating of the 370, feels like every other american modern muscle car on the road.

As for warranty, some people could give a shit less about a warranty, you dont get one from a used car and the hoops you have to jump through in order to get some things fixed doesnt always make it worth it either.

[shadoquad]

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

Do you really believe that an extra 60 or so hp is that detrimental to the car? All the things you mentioned would be fine at that level. Aside from tires, which most people will be replacing with better ones when the time comes anyway.

agree

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

As for a more upscale environment, thats all personal taste and opinion. I despise the interior and seating of the 370, feels like every other american modern muscle car on the road.

disagree. The materials in the Z are a bit pricier and more plush, but both cars are well laid out imo. And the Z is not a thing like the Mustang or Camaro inside. It's a driver-focused cockpit, similar to the old Supras.

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

As for warranty, some people could give a shit less about a warranty, you dont get one from a used car and the hoops you have to jump through in order to get some things fixed doesnt always make it worth it either.

Why wouldn't you want a warranty? It's more than just warranty, though. If Subaru/Scion put a stock turbo in here, resale will be easier/better. And I'm sorry, I'd rather have a warrantied turbo in a motor that was meant for it than the problems which may come with adding FI to an NA motor and voiding whatever warranty I had. Thousands of dollars in saved expenditures if things go haywire, whether you have to fight for it or not, is worth it.



Bear in mind, this is all only opinion, of course. I just disagree with yours in a few areas.

[Honesty]

I was a member here before I owned a 370Z. Had a deposit down on a white manual FR-S but changed my mind. So please don't think I just showed up here to troll. When I registered here I was still driving my M3.

I think this is a great comparison, and Chris is exactly right. Basically says it exactly. Little light cars with easy light engines like the BRZ/FR-S (and my old RSX-S) have a natural place being really ringed out. They like to rev, they like to corner. They feel at home being thrown around really hard. And it's totally true that the Z feels amazing when you're just rolling into third gear up to maybe 5500 RPMs. But that heavy girl doesn't like to dance as much, and the engine can rev but it doesn't feel like it wants to. And the transmission moves SO MUCH between gear shifts at high RPMs that you have problems finding the right gear to bang into.

When it came down to it though, I went back to the Scion dealership, asked for my deposit back, and picked up a 370Z.

Originally Posted by cruzinbill

The thing is, stock to stock a Z is faster than an 86, but what about when you turbo the 86. You then have a car that is about $1500 cheaper still and I think will easily hold its own.

I do agree with his points of likes and dislikes.... well all but the dash stuff, i dont see it as fake carbon, i see it as patterned T's, also I am glad the scions come with cloth seats.

You can't compare a stock car to a modified one though. I just think that's a foolish comparison, and always will be. Here's why: Why buy a BRZ/FR-S when you can just get a used Mazdaspeed Miata, and make some mods, then you've got a car that has more power and torque and less weight than the BRZ/FR-S?

Or why buy a V8 Mustang when you can get an older V6 Mustang and slap a blower or two turbos on it?

Or why buy a GT-R when you can just get an STi and crank up the boost, throw on wider tires, and lower it?

Or why buy a Ford Focus ST when you can just get an SRT-4 and blah blah...

The comparison between a car that comes with a warranty and is sold to the public and a car that you modify in your garage with your own money and parts from the aftermarket is the embodiment of apples to oranges. You can almost always make a modified car faster than a given stock car for cheaper. The comparison doesn't prove anything. Plus most of the time the argument ends with "Just buy a Foxbody Mustang for 2500 dollars, dump 5 grand into it, and you have a light RWD car that can run a 10 second quarter mile."

I love the FR-S and think it is THE best car to hit the market in the last decade. Easily. I'm so glad it was made and I look forward to seeing more of them at SCCA auto-x events.