..... vs. DC2 Integra Type R

[Jayde]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Yeah.. powered by a D series IIRC. I haven't looked into them since Blake first mentioned the project probably 9 or 10 years ago.

I thought it was something different like the ZC engine.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Can't say anything that we probably haven't already heard. Biggest problem with the GTS is it actually needs someone who knows how to drive it. My average at the track in my stock GTS was 14.85, not the best out there, but whatever. I haven't taken the BRZ up. Probably won't either, there have been tales of dealerships checking the track for people who race. My friend has long since sold his ITR. He averaged 14.7 with 2.0 60's. He drove the BRZ and loved it. Said it was nice to not have to downshift to get up hills. LOL

Mostly messing with you on the GTS. The main thing I didn't like about it when I first drove it was the horrific gearing. I thought about buying one as a DD after my track/DD GS-R suffered some side damage but the gearing made it fall flat on shifts, quite noticably. Other than that I didn't mind the car.

We don't have hills in Florida so I can't relate to that :P

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Jayde

I thought it was something different like the ZC engine.

Yeah just checked, ZC, which is really just a D series anyways with agressive cams or whatever.

I use to hate Hondas so my only experience with D series stuff is ripping them out for B series...

[nighthawk]

I know a guy with ITR here that went 13.9 sec on completly stock ITR. And ITR really isnt 2600 lbs, its below 2500 on average.

It isnt just who is faster in straight line. ITR has that special feeling of pure racecar that you can use on the street. I had modified civic before with about the same HP and it just isnt comparable. The shifting, the noise, the cornering....it really is something else.

Thats why I asked someone who owned ITR to compare them. I understand that for some its just another high reving Honda and its nothing wrong with that. But owners usually understands....

Saying that BRZ is more like RWD GSR than RWD ITR says it all to me. But I dont think you can buy a car as raw as ITR was stock nowdays, not spending some silly money for porsche GT3 or something in that class.

I guess BRZ with 300 pounds less and 20hp tune-up, with perfect suspension setup would be the right thing for me

[JACK 8URT0N]

Originally Posted by nighthawk

ITR has that special feeling

Which cannot be described on paper, or experienced in other cars. It is truly unique.

[AJUSA.com]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Yeah just checked, ZC, which is really just a D series anyways with agressive cams or whatever.

I use to hate Hondas so my only experience with D series stuff is ripping them out for B series...

Why do that? SCCA championship winner right here @ 125hp, STS class. Also placed 2nd in SCCA Pro-solo national tour. Passes Viper ACR's at Cal Speedways Roval. ETC

[TouchMyHonda]

Originally Posted by AJUSA.com

Why do that? SCCA championship winner right here @ 125hp, STS class. Also placed 2nd in SCCA Pro-solo national tour. Passes Viper ACR's at Cal Speedways Roval. ETC

Bet it can't pass Charlie Rhyu..... JKJK Sorta!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by AJUSA.com

Why do that? SCCA championship winner right here @ 125hp, STS class. Also placed 2nd in SCCA Pro-solo national tour. Passes Viper ACR's at Cal Speedways Roval. ETC

More power on the street

[brianc]

If you think the BRZ/FRS has good gearing you are .....

Thats the first thing I notice about the BRZ and FRS when I step on it. Takes so long to get to high revs. The ITR gets to the high revs much quicker than the BRZ.

I wish the FR-S or BRZ had a better final drive. I think for a 200hp FWD to be able to hang with a 200hp RWD. That FWD has got something cool about it. Can't say that for all the new FWDs.


1998 Acura Integra Type R vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si

Revenge of the Acura Integra Type R



cool article

[Jayde]

Originally Posted by brianc

If you think the BRZ/FRS has good gearing you are .....

Thats the first thing I notice about the BRZ and FRS when I step on it. Takes so long to get to high revs. The ITR gets to the high revs much quicker than the BRZ.

I wish the FR-S or BRZ had a better final drive. I think for a 200hp FWD to be able to hang with a 200hp RWD. That FWD has got something cool about it. Can't say that for all the new FWDs.


1998 Acura Integra Type R vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si

Revenge of the Acura Integra Type R



cool article

I saw that article a couple years ago. What I would give to have a Type R that's never been registered and with 5,500 miles on it!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Jayde

I saw that article a couple years ago. What I would give to have a Type R that's never been registered and with 5,500 miles on it!

It just again recently

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by brianc

Thats the first thing I notice about the BRZ and FRS when I step on it. Takes so long to get to high revs. The ITR gets to the high revs much quicker than the BRZ.

Gearing is for getting out of the hole (i.e., zero-to-xx speed). Once you're over some low speed in first gear, having super low (numerically high) overall gearing doesn't really help you, as you have to upshift sooner, which then puts you at a gearing disadvantage, all else equal.

Of course an 8400rpm car is going to be differently-geared than a 7400rpm car, that's to be expected.

The Type R's engine advantage over the FR-S is that its much higher redline allows lower gearing without the disadvantage of having to upshift at lower speeds. Its engine disadvantage is 10% lower displacement. Overall, 195hp vs. 200hp = roughly equal. But the Type R is a good 150 lb. lighter-weight.

I wish the FR-S or BRZ had a better final drive.

IMO, it's already geared pretty sportily. Probably about right for most autoX/track work, if not for outright zero-to-xx mph acceleration. Shorter (numerically higher) gearing would require upshifts at lower speeds, not necessarily going to make it quicker overall. 0-58mph will definitely be quicker with the stock gearing than with Integra Type R overall gearing, which would require an upshift to 3rd.

I think for a 200hp FWD to be able to hang with a 200hp RWD.

The real story is power/weight: 14.36 lb/hp for the Type R is comparable to, slightly better than 14.75 lb/hp for the FR-S/BRZ (both with 200 lb driver + fuel). And they both do about the same in the 1/4 (high-14s/low-15s at ~95mph).

At this modest power/weight level, fwd isn't as much of an inherent disadvantage for acceleration performance.
But it is still "wrong-wheel drive"...

[CBR600RR]

^ well said

[brianc]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Gearing is for getting out of the hole (i.e., zero-to-xx speed). Once your over some low speed in first gear, having super low (numerically high) overall gearing doesn't really help you, as you have to upshift sooner, which then puts you at a gearing disadvantage, all else equal.

Of course an 8400rpm car is going to be differently-geared than a 7400rpm car, that's to be expected.

The Type R's engine advantage over the FR-S is that its much higher redline allows lower gearing without the disadvantage of having to upshift at lower speeds. Its engine disadvantage is 10% lower displacement. Overall, 195hp vs. 200hp = roughly equal. But the Type R is a good 150 lb. lighter-weight.

IMO, it's already geared pretty sportily. Probably about right for most autoX/track work, if not for outright zero-to-xx mph acceleration. Shorter (numerically higher) gearing would require upshifts at lower speeds, not necessarily going to make it quicker overall. 0-58mph will definitely be quicker with the stock gearing than with Integra Type R overall gearing, which would require an upshift to 3rd.


The real story is power/weight: 14.36 lb/hp for the Type R is comparable to, slightly better than 14.75 lb/hp for the FR-S/BRZ (both with 200 lb driver + fuel). And they both do about the same in the 1/4 (high-14s/low-15s at ~95mph).

At this modest power/weight level, fwd isn't as much of an inherent disadvantage for acceleration performance.
But it is still "wrong-wheel drive"...

I don't know if we are agreeing on the same thing here. I mentioned that for a FWD the ITR is one of the best and is very impressive as it hangs with many RWDs in performance comparisons. Never mentioned FWD was better. In no way is FWD superior. RWD and AWD have more advantages.

I think for a car like the BRZ and FRS (doesn't get very quick until higher rpms) a faster final drive (higher numerical number) will improve acceleration as it gets the car quicker into the powerband. I'm not sure if it's just me but slamming a 5.1 final drive into my DC5 improved my laptimes at my local 1 minute track by over a second consistently.

The BRZ and FRS don't have that much torque. If they had 200lbs of tq they would likely be much more ballsy to drive. Giving it a quicker final drive will give it more usable torque. It won't actually give you more torque but you will feel torque quicker. Does that make sense?

http://www.teammfactory.com/final-drive-gears-road-race

The weight isnt the only factor of the DC2 being successful. The chassis/suspension design is one of my favorite in Hondas design. I drive both the DC5 and DC2 closely and even though they are the same weight pretty much, the DC2 is much more engaging to drive.