When will we get some "official" news on engine

[iff2mastamatt]

Originally Posted by racinstylez

It better not have 148hp and it better not have less than 200hp. That would definitely push the enthusiast customer away from purchasing it and make them go with another manufacture.

I don't think 200hp is too much to ask for, but I think Toyota will want to see how fast it can go with 30mpg. I'm all for fuel efficiency, but I want the thing to move when I put the foot down.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm not advocating that the car ONLY have a stock FB, I'm saying make a cheaper, stripped volume version. Like I said $19k. Do it, Scion/Toyota.

In other words, a successor to the Celica GT.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Exage

While asking questions is a good thing, asking the same question or questions again can get a little aggravating no? Do you agree or disagree? Do you see what I did there? Hang on don't answer those!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=1124&p=32927
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...page=2&p=33042

These are my posts from your other thread which explains why I don't think they will use the FB20 block. The fact that the Yamaha name has been thrown around now explains why I HOPE they don't use the FB20 block as the foundation for a naturally aspirated engine.

When did I ever ask the same question again? The thread you are linking was the whole FB20 vs. FB25. This thread is about getting official news on the engine. You speculated that they would not use a FB20 block.

Exhibit 1:

Originally Posted by Exage

I have my doubts that it will be the FB20 block or even based on it... I personally don't think it has the internal requirements they need to make the 2.0L engine they want for the FT86/FR-S for longevity sake.

I then provided a link to an article where an auto writer mentioned the FB20 could be the basis of the new engine in the FT86 based on their own speculation/expectation.


Exhibit 2:

Originally Posted by Exage

Unless you have even the slightest clue about engine design (let alone components), I'm not even going to go into it this with you... You'll just end up aggravating me and cause me to post a bunch of technical engineering gibberish you and most people at Car and Driver wouldn't understand.

They don't have to make a whole new engine which is why I specifically stated the FB20 BLOCK. I think it makes more economical sense to take the FB25 block and components and re-design it to 2.0L than risk pre-mature engine failure by constantly ringing out a D4-S FB20 (especially if the redline is above 7500rpm). I've stated my views on this previously in your other thread. But, who knows? It's all speculation!

As you said it is all speculation and based off of your views. There is no reason to get upset when someone else provides something that you might not agree with. I am honest enough to say that I don't know what the engine will be like but I would like to know since I am interested in this car. However you don't seem honest enough to say that since you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. You can speculate as much as you want, as you mentioned you have, but please don't act like you know it all and everyone else is dumb if they don't agree with you.

Originally Posted by Exage

While asking questions is a good thing, asking the same question or questions again can get a little aggravating no? Do you agree or disagree? Do you see what I did there? Hang on don't answer those!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=1124&p=32927
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...page=2&p=33042

These are my posts from your other thread which explains why I don't think they will use the FB20 block. The fact that the Yamaha name has been thrown around now explains why I HOPE they don't use the FB20 block as the foundation for a naturally aspirated engine.

First, I never asked you to explain the engine in this thread. Did I? I asked a general question of why they wouldn't just tweak the FB20 for the FT-86 instead of designing a whole new engine for it. Secondly, I realize now that a lot of your opinion/expectations/speculations is based off of what you HOPE this engine to be like rather than what Subaru/Toyota will end up doing. Ultimately in the end none of us know and we all are waiting for some official news.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to the topic at hand:

Originally Posted by xantonin

Perhaps someone can actually answer the question.

Surely there's another auto show coming up. Does any one know the next date for an auto show that Toyota is likely to attend?

This is a great question and hopefully someone here as an answer to it. But probably not since we would have heard something about it by now?

[old greg]

There are craptons of autoshows each year, and I'm sure toyota attends them all in some capacity. But don't expect to see anything FR-S/FT-86 related until the Tokyo auto show in December, and maybe not even then. If any information gets released before then, it won't be at an autoshow.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by old greg

There are craptons of autoshows each year, and I'm sure toyota attends them all in some capacity. But don't expect to see anything FR-S/FT-86 related until the Tokyo auto show in December, and maybe not even then. If any information gets released before then, it won't be at an autoshow.

I would be interested in seeing if Subaru does anything leading up to Tokyo.

[old greg]

I'm not sure. I kind of get the feeling that Toyota will reveal a finished car at Tokyo, and if so a big unveiling by Subaru would steal their thunder. In any case, I don't think we'll see both cars there

[aliphian]

The fact that Subaru hasn't shown anything regarding design makes me think this car will be a straight up rebadge. Wouldn't they want to get some feedback on their design before production?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by aliphian

The fact that Subaru hasn't shown anything regarding design makes me think this car will be a straight up rebadge. Wouldn't they want to get some feedback on their design before production?

That is true but maybe they are doing their research by seeing what everyone dislikes about the Scion/wanted to see on the Scion but wasn't delivered? But I agree, I wish Subaru was showing off prototypes and hearing feedback from the consumer.

[ryun84]

I was really hoping for some more news of the Subaru variant during the New York show, since Subaru has a history of surprises/showings at that particular event. But I had a feeling it was too early for anything from them. Don't know when to expect any news either.

[Exage]

I'm not even the slightest upset, I am not a child.

As of right now, I disagree with the auto magazines idea that it will be a D4-S FB20. If Subaru had been testing the FT86 with "just" a D4-S system on a FB20 engine we would have heard more about the engine by now and they wouldn't have hesitated to show it in the Concept 2 and FR-S Concept even as a show piece. Something isn't adding up.

I previously stated why the FB20 block isn't ideal for what they had envisioned for the car. Then you go on to ask me if I think it's economical to create a new engine for the car which I have already explained why changing the FB25 (not creating a new engine) in the second post makes more economical sense than the 200bhp D4-S FB20, due to pre-mature engine wear due to increased power and at high rpm usage in the form of technical explanation of the FB poor rod-stroke ratio. So go ahead attack me saying the bad "know it all" man.

I don't want this to sound like an attack because we are both genuinely excited for news on the car; but do you seriously have a near 15 posts a day average?

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by racinstylez

It better not have 148hp and it better not have less than 200hp. That would definitely push the enthusiast customer away from purchasing it and make them go with another manufacture.

We're talking barebones when we say somewhere near 148BHP. I know that the engine is capable of 230PS(225BHP) from the factory because they have suggested it in interviews. Even more BHP is possible if turbocharged too.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'd take 148 bhp at 2420 lbs. Dead serious.

Make me a $19k version with a stock FB20, Toyota. Make it a stripper (options, not dancer) and keep it light.

Here here. . I think this is what Scion is going to mean. I'm hoping the price can be haggled down or discounted if we pay cash though. That would set many peoples minds at ease, I think huh.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Um, what? CRX Si was like 106 hp.

148 hp at 2420 lbs gives me 16.35 lbs/hp. And a 7.1-7.3 0-60 mph estimate.

I'm not advocating that the car ONLY have a stock FB, I'm saying make a cheaper, stripped volume version. Like I said $19k. Do it, Scion/Toyota.

I can add power to a motor. It's tough to strip weight in a nice and comfortable manner.

Yeah, nice catch BTW. Honestly it's stuff like this that makes me think what if they offer a FB16 later on and just launch it with the super special NA FB20 initially. How cool would that be? The FB16 should be 50lbs lighter than the FB20, even with boxers needing two heads. I know they're going to build a FB16 and it's going to be a turbo based variant. I'm going to have to start petitioning that we can at least special order the FB16 in the US when they start production .

I'm sorry, that I can't help with any guesses or tips to when we will see something official on the engine :/.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

I'm hoping the price can be haggled down or discounted if we pay cash though. That would set many peoples minds at ease, I think huh.

I doubt the car can be haggled down. Isn't that the "perk" of Scion; no haggling the price you see is the price you pay? I personally don't like that model but many do. If supply cant meet demand for the car, I don't see any reason why the dealer would cut any deal. Especially not on cash. If you financed they would probably make a bit off of that and might do something. Don't see how cash would make a difference, unfortunately.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

I doubt the car can be haggled down. Isn't that the "perk" of Scion; no haggling the price you see is the price you pay? I personally don't like that model but many do. If supply cant meet demand for the car, I don't see any reason why the dealer would cut any deal. Especially not on cash. If you financed they would probably make a bit off of that and might do something. Don't see how cash would make a difference, unfortunately.

The perk of fixed price is that they can't sell it above MSRP. Cash is something that would justify a discount or a better price for a "no haggle" price. Especially since MSRP is always higher than invoice.

Eg. if you pay cash at a hospital they will automatically discount the bill down a certain percentage since they won't make nearly as much off of an insurance paid deal. Car dealers work the same way, loans are far more risky than cash upfront .

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Car dealers work the same way, loans are far more risky than cash upfront.

I guess that depends if you finance through Toyota/Scion or go through your local bank/credit union. Some dealerships make more on the finance end of the deal than the actual sale of the car itself. If they get paid by you through cash or a bank/finance company they really don't care. They get paid in the end. If you finance through them they will make a few percentage points off of you depending on the loan amount and length. They can always repossess your car if you don't make good on the loan, so I'm not sure they are worried about the risk. Money now = more important to them.

Health insurance isn't a good analogy as it is more complex and not as straightforward as the goods driven market. I work in health care and can tell you that uninsured people tend to pay quite a bit more than those who are in an HMO/PPO. The HMO/PPO is able to work out group discounting/rates that the average person is unable to do. Now if you go into medical bankruptcy/unable to pay your bills, the hospital might be willing to work with you for a payment plan that ends up being less than the "cost" they billed you or just write it off. However the "cost" of medical care really isn't easy to determine as crazy as that might sound to some people not in the field.