..... vs. DC2 Integra Type R

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by quik1987

vs.


Tale of the Tape


FIGHT!

It really is uncanny how similar these cars are on paper. My good friend in college had a yellow ITR. I loved that car. Too bad he moved to Cali and a few months later his car was found gutted after being out of town for a weekend. Engine gone. Wheels gone. Interior gone. I forgot what else. They should have just taken the whole car.

But it looks like the BRZ might be very close if not slightly better than the ITR. We can only hope. Look forward to Dave's thoughts once he test drives the BRZ.

[nighthawk]

Sorry for bumping this, but I want to know...

Any of you FT86 owners previously owned Integra Type R? Not GSR or similar I see pictures in this tread...

I had one for 3 years and I would really like to know how this car compares from someone who had both. Mine had exhaust header, JDM cat and Spoon catback and it showed 170whp on dyno. Would this new toyota be slower than ITR, since it has I think 120kg or so more and around 150 WHP? - correct me here if I`m wrong.

[brianc]

Originally Posted by nighthawk

Sorry for bumping this, but I want to know...

Any of you FT86 owners previously owned Integra Type R? Not GSR or similar I see pictures in this tread...

I had one for 3 years and I would really like to know how this car compares from someone who had both. Mine had exhaust header, JDM cat and Spoon catback and it showed 170whp on dyno. Would this new toyota be slower than ITR, since it has I think 120kg or so more and around 150 WHP? - correct me here if I`m wrong.

I've driven an ITR often along side the FR-S. The ITR feels faster and more exciting. That's likely because of the modifications to the ITR though. Stock for stock I can't say.. But your modified ITR will be more exciting to drive than a stock FR-S. If you modify the FR-S it should be just as fun to drive. Around a track I think it's a drivers race. I've been in a ITR that was breathing down the back of a FR-S at my local track. That FR-S had Hankook RS3s too. I'm going to hit up AutoX soon with some FR-S guys and I'll be in a USDM DC2R.

PIC Select Coilovers
Miracle X Brace
Spoon 4 Pots + SS Lines + HP+
Buddy Club Spec 2
Js Racing Intake
Mugen MF10s w/Star Spec Z1s

I'll return with feedback.

[2forme]

IMO, the ITR is very bland styling wise. That motor has plenty of potential, but it's very peaky and rather anemic on the low end. I would give the nod to the 86 in a stock for stock situation. Better gearing, much more low end torque, more modern conveniences (BRZ Limited). But both are respectable cars!

[JACK 8URT0N]

Originally Posted by nighthawk

Sorry for bumping this, but I want to know...

Any of you FT86 owners previously owned Integra Type R? Not GSR or similar I see pictures in this tread...

I had one for 3 years and I would really like to know how this car compares from someone who had both. Mine had exhaust header, JDM cat and Spoon catback and it showed 170whp on dyno. Would this new toyota be slower than ITR, since it has I think 120kg or so more and around 150 WHP? - correct me here if I`m wrong.

I had a type R too. Coming from that car is the main reason I got a BRZ. I also had an SC300 5 speed, so I was already familiar with RWD. Lightweight RWD however, is still new to me. Finding the limits on the R was much harder in the corners, but this car is capable of getting there, i think. I wish I still had the R, but it was stolen, as is per tradition.

[Jayde]

Yay dead threads!

I plan on getting a Type R someday. I've always had a thing for Integras and I always will. I miss my old one. If I don't end up finding a Type R, I'll look for a GSR.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by nighthawk

Sorry for bumping this, but I want to know...

Any of you FT86 owners previously owned Integra Type R? Not GSR or similar I see pictures in this tread...

I had one for 3 years and I would really like to know how this car compares from someone who had both. Mine had exhaust header, JDM cat and Spoon catback and it showed 170whp on dyno. Would this new toyota be slower than ITR, since it has I think 120kg or so more and around 150 WHP? - correct me here if I`m wrong.

....



The ITR is, hands down, a faster car. There's absolutely no question about it.

The two are EXTREMELY similar though (ITR is much more raw and usable (space) while the BRZ is much more modern and civilized with far superior steering feel.

I never drive my ITR anymore and it's likely for sale soon although it costs me almost nothing to keep it (collector car insurance is ~400 a year), I'd just rather have the 10-12k sitting around than a car I never enjoy anymore

And that's not to say the BRZ is far superior - it's not IMO. It's not at all special like the ITR either. It's more a matter of having a newer safe car for the street, a race car for the track.. and that really leaves no use left for the ITR so I'd rather let someone else enjoy it.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 2forme

IMO, the ITR is very bland styling wise. That motor has plenty of potential, but it's very peaky and rather anemic on the low end. I would give the nod to the 86 in a stock for stock situation. Better gearing, much more low end torque, more modern conveniences (BRZ Limited). But both are respectable cars!

A basically stock ITR pulls on my BRZ on the low end.. by pulls I mean walks away from it. Only with launching with a stock BRZ hang near a stock anemic ITR.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

A basically stock ITR pulls on my BRZ on the low end.. by pulls I mean walks away from it. Only with launching with my stock BRZ hang near a stock anemic ITR.

Fixed it for you.

I could pull up stock dynos, gear ratios and how they affect wheel tq, all then numbers and jazz, but it's too much effort. There's a reason why ITR's and BRZ's pull the same quarter mile times. If ITR's have a better top end (which they do), then how does the BRZ keep pace?

Regardless, I've seen such a large variance in stock dyno numbers for the 86. My buddy pulled 143 whp... stock. While others have pulled around 160-170. Perhaps you're one of the unlucky ones.

For what it's worth, I raced an old friends ITR while I had a Celica GTS. Under the 2nd cam profile, they were pretty much dead even... Do I think the GTS has a better low end than a BRZ....nope.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

....

The ITR is, hands down, a faster car. There's absolutely no question about it.

The two are EXTREMELY similar though (ITR is much more raw and usable (space) while the BRZ is much more modern and civilized with far superior steering feel.

I never drive my ITR anymore and it's likely for sale soon although it costs me almost nothing to keep it (collector car insurance is ~400 a year), I'd just rather have the 10-12k sitting around than a car I never enjoy anymore

And that's not to say the BRZ is far superior - it's not IMO. It's not at all special like the ITR either. It's more a matter of having a newer safe car for the street, a race car for the track.. and that really leaves no use left for the ITR so I'd rather let someone else enjoy it.

Nice write-up Dave. I had an old DC2 (not Type-R). Still miss that car from time to time, especially the engine note that sounded raw and edgy. I'm surprised you thought the BRZ's steering feel was much better though. I didn't get that impression when I drove the FR-S at the first-drive event, but I guess I'll have to wait until mine comes in.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

....



The ITR is, hands down, a faster car. There's absolutely no question about it.

The two are EXTREMELY similar though (ITR is much more raw and usable (space) while the BRZ is much more modern and civilized with far superior steering feel.

I never drive my ITR anymore and it's likely for sale soon although it costs me almost nothing to keep it (collector car insurance is ~400 a year), I'd just rather have the 10-12k sitting around than a car I never enjoy anymore

And that's not to say the BRZ is far superior - it's not IMO. It's not at all special like the ITR either. It's more a matter of having a newer safe car for the street, a race car for the track.. and that really leaves no use left for the ITR so I'd rather let someone else enjoy it.

Didn't notice this for the first post. I had to reply.

B18C5 stock dyno:
http://www.carbide-red.com/car/stock_b18c5_dyno.gif

86 stock dyno:
http://www.tune86.com/sites/default/...n-frs-dyno.jpg

Explain to me how 2200 RPM of torque above 110 ft-lbs (300 rpm above 120) is considered to be more usable power than 4750 RPM's of torque above 120 ft-lbs and 3000 of that around 140 ft-lbs given similar weight that it needs to haul....

I understand you probably love the ITR. It's a fantastic car, but let's be realistic here. 90% of the time I'm not "using" 6000-8000 RPM...The ITR is 10 years old, has a great motor, TONS of aftermarket, and a large red target on it. Given your signature, I'd assume you have a large bias towards them. Sorry if my bland comment offended, but that's my opinion.

[Jayde]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

....



The ITR is, hands down, a faster car. There's absolutely no question about it.

The two are EXTREMELY similar though (ITR is much more raw and usable (space) while the BRZ is much more modern and civilized with far superior steering feel.

I never drive my ITR anymore and it's likely for sale soon although it costs me almost nothing to keep it (collector car insurance is ~400 a year), I'd just rather have the 10-12k sitting around than a car I never enjoy anymore

And that's not to say the BRZ is far superior - it's not IMO. It's not at all special like the ITR either. It's more a matter of having a newer safe car for the street, a race car for the track.. and that really leaves no use left for the ITR so I'd rather let someone else enjoy it.

You have no idea how jealous I am of that picture...

Oh, the ITR... someday..

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Didn't notice this for the first post. I had to reply.

B18C5 stock dyno:
http://www.carbide-red.com/car/stock_b18c5_dyno.gif

86 stock dyno:
http://www.tune86.com/sites/default/...n-frs-dyno.jpg

Explain to me how 2200 RPM of torque above 110 ft-lbs (300 rpm above 120) is considered to be more usable power than 4750 RPM's of torque above 120 ft-lbs and 3000 of that around 140 ft-lbs given similar weight that it needs to haul....

I haven't run the numbers so you might be right, but you'd need to factor in curb weight (ITR is 2639, BRZ is 2776) and gearing to make an accurate comparison.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Fixed it for you.

I could pull up stock dynos, gear ratios and how they affect wheel tq, all then numbers and jazz, but it's too much effort. There's a reason why ITR's and BRZ's pull the same quarter mile times. If ITR's have a better top end (which they do), then how does the BRZ keep pace?

Regardless, I've seen such a large variance in stock dyno numbers for the 86. My buddy pulled 143 whp... stock. While others have pulled around 160-170. Perhaps you're one of the unlucky ones.

For what it's worth, I raced an old friends ITR while I had a Celica GTS. Under the 2nd cam profile, they were pretty much dead even... Do I think the GTS has a better low end than a BRZ....nope.

Launch. Look at the 5-60 times for the BRZ, they are pitiful because of the dip. The BRZ was dead even with my stock *GSR* from a 20MPH roll until I had to shift in the BRZ, then the GS-R pulled a bit.

Are those numbers from the same dyno on the same day? If not, they don't mean much. I could go make a dyno show my BRZ at 150hp, and then change some settings to make it match a 170whp dyno.

Some stock ITRs (ie good driver at sea level strips) have also posted 13.8-13.9 in the quarter, has a BRZ touched that yet?

I gain nothing by stating the ITR is faster, but I doubt my BRZ is that much slower than the norm or that my ITR is that much faster than the norm.

I even stated from a launch, the two should be more or less equal.