Difficult to heel toe

[sho220]

Originally Posted by fatoni

heel toe has nothing to do with proper braking technique. its for accelerating.

I don't see how it has much to do with accelerating either...considering you're only blipping the throttle to down shift...sure it's in preperation for accelerating out of a corner, but not really the same thing...I'm sure you'll be happy to explain how I'm wrong though...

[streetwaves]

Originally Posted by ill86

It is not necessary.
It is useful.

I didn't say it wasn't useful, it's just not half as useful on public roads as it is on the track.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by sho220

I don't see how it has much to do with accelerating either...considering you're only blipping the throttle to down shift...sure it's in preperation for accelerating out of a corner, but not really the same thing...I'm sure you'll be happy to explain how I'm wrong though...

i fail to see how "for accelerating" doesnt encompass "preparation for accelerating." the only reason you do that is to not upset the cars balance by the increased tq in a lower gear. with cars like this, there usually isnt enough tq to upset the car.

[hotaka]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i fail to see how "for accelerating" doesnt encompass "preparation for accelerating." the only reason you do that is to not upset the cars balance by the increased tq in a lower gear. with cars like this, there usually isnt enough tq to upset the car.

regardless, downshifting is a lot faster and smoother with heel toe.

[ill86]

Originally Posted by fatoni

heel toe has nothing to do with proper braking technique. its for accelerating.

I'm sorry, but..

Your right foot is primarily BRAKING, secondary action is rev matching with the accelerator while you clutch in (with your left foot) and select a gear..

It is an "advanced" braking technique i teach my first time track students.

[ill86]

Originally Posted by streetwaves

I didn't say it wasn't useful, it's just not half as useful on public roads as it is on the track.

I know. i agree :happy0180:

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ill86

I'm sorry, but..

Your right foot is primarily BRAKING, secondary action is rev matching with the accelerator while you clutch in (with your left foot) and select a gear..

It is an "advanced" braking technique i teach my first time track students.

when you do it isnt important. its why you do it. the only reason you heel toe is to accelerate smoothly. heel toe has literally zero benefit unless you intend to accelerate. it has zero impact on braking

[sho220]

Originally Posted by fatoni

when you do it isnt important. its why you do it. the only reason you heel toe is to accelerate smoothly. heel toe has literally zero benefit unless you intend to accelerate. it has zero impact on braking

I thought it's purpose was to down shift smoothly?

[ill86]

Originally Posted by fatoni

with cars like this, there usually isnt enough tq to upset the car.

This ^^ right here is what I have a problem with and why I replied initially.

There isn't enough torque to upset the car??
Really? Go into a turn (don't worry about braking for now..).. pay no attention to where your revs are at when you downshift and just let the clutch out without matching engine speed. You wouldn't do that.. Why? Becuause it's going to jerk like hell.. It could also upset the weight transfer forward thus lightening your rear.. So, you "rev match" and use your right foot on the accelerator and your left on the clutch. Therefore being able to match engine speed for the lower gear.

Now, let's add BRAKING to the mix.. same turn, but you have to Brake upon entry. ta-da... Heel Toe was born. Why? because the driver needed to apply the brakes, rev match and clutch in with only two feet. Thank god this was created so nobody had to use their "3rd member".. or we would have an entirely different thread on our hands.. :happy0180:

Originally Posted by fatoni

when you do it isnt important. its why you do it. the only reason you heel toe is to accelerate smoothly. heel toe has literally zero benefit unless you intend to accelerate. it has zero impact on braking

I know what you are saying I'm still going to disagree with HOW you are saying it.

It has quite a bit to do with braking. Yes, the technique is used to match engine speed to wheel speed. But, you are certainly braking while doing so. it is a "shifting" and "braking" technique. You know why? Because you blend downshifting with BRAKING.

[Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by sho220

I thought it's purpose was to down shift smoothly?

It is, but the reason for the downshift is to bring the car into an optimum spot in the power band, allowing you to maximize acceleration either for passing on highways, or coming out of turns on tracks.

[ill86]

Originally Posted by sho220

I thought it's purpose was to down shift smoothly?

Correct. It is a braking and shifting technique used to match engine speed.

This is why I consider it a Braking technique; entering a turn and needing to downshift all the while matching engine speed to avoid radical weight transfer. First you are braking which is transferring weight to the front and unloading the rear.. secondly if you didn't downshift smoothly your light rear would become a very fun oversteer situation.


Yes, it (also) has to do with gear selection to accelerate out of the turn. I just wouldn't refer to it as a acceleration technique..

I heel toe turning onto my road everyday. Even in my M/T 4x4 trucks.. It's a downhill, 90 degree right hand turn that leads uphill.

I'm driving down the road in 4th, h/t to 3rd, h/t to 2nd, turn and SLOWLY drive up the hill to my driveway. In this instance.. I'm not doing to in preparation of acceleration - But to ensure smooth braking and downshifting as I reduce vehicle speed.

And for random practice.

[sho220]

Originally Posted by ill86

Correct. It is a braking and shifting technique used to match engine speed.

This is why I consider it a Braking technique; entering a turn and needing to downshift all the while matching engine speed to avoid radical weight transfer. First you are braking which is transferring weight to the front and unloading the rear.. secondly if you didn't downshift smoothly your light rear would become a very fun oversteer situation.


Yes, it (also) has to do with gear selection to accelerate out of the turn. I just wouldn't refer to it as a acceleration technique..

I heel toe turning onto my road everyday. Even in my M/T 4x4 trucks.. It's a downhill, 90 degree right hand turn that leads uphill.

I'm driving down the road in 4th, h/t to 3rd, h/t to 2nd, turn and SLOWLY drive up the hill to my driveway. In this instance.. I'm not doing to in preparation of acceleration - But to ensure smooth braking and downshifting as I reduce vehicle speed.

And for random practice.

Agree 100%...I just like reading fatoni's dopey replies. Please don't squash this thread...it's amusing...

And I completely disagree!!! IT'S FOR ACCELERATING!!! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRAKING!!! OR FOR BREAKING EITHER!!!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by ill86

This ^^ right here is what I have a problem with and why I replied initially.

There isn't enough torque to upset the car??
Really? Go into a turn (don't worry about braking for now..).. pay no attention to where your revs are at when you downshift and just let the clutch out without matching engine speed. You wouldn't do that.. Why? Becuause it's going to jerk like hell.. It could also upset the weight transfer forward thus lightening your rear.. So, you "rev match" and use your right foot on the accelerator and your left on the clutch. Therefore being able to match engine speed for the lower gear.

Now, let's add BRAKING to the mix.. same turn, but you have to Brake upon entry. ta-da... Heel Toe was born. Why? because the driver needed to apply the brakes, rev match and clutch in with only two feet. Thank god this was created so nobody had to use their "3rd member".. or we would have an entirely different thread on our hands.. :happy0180:




I know what you are saying I'm still going to disagree with HOW you are saying it.

It has quite a bit to do with braking. Yes, the technique is used to match engine speed to wheel speed. But, you are certainly braking while doing so. it is a "shifting" and "braking" technique. You know why? Because you blend downshifting with BRAKING.

i understand the concept. you dont have to explain to me what is going on. its just that this car has more composure than power. you see it a lot in races when cars are of that nature. when you watch spec miata, you see about half of the racers do this. why? because its just one more place to make a mistake and its not empirically faster.

just because you do it while braking doesnt make it a braking technique. the whole point of the technique is to corner smoothly. you can argue semantics all you want, its purpose is to get on the gas smoothly

[sho220]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i understand the concept. you dont have to explain to me what is going on. its just that this car has more composure than power. you see it a lot in races when cars are of that nature. when you watch spec miata, you see about half of the racers do this. why? because its just one more place to make a mistake and its not empirically faster.

just because you do it while braking doesnt make it a braking technique. the whole point of the technique is to corner smoothly. you can argue semantics all you want, its purpose is to get on the gas smoothly

YEAH! BRAKING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRAKING!!!