If the FT-86 is a fail...what will you do?

[NikostC]

If the FR-S is a fail, then i will prolly stick to my tC, since its not that old anyway (2010).

[OldSkoolToys]

Originally Posted by fatoni

not really. the ring is more driver dependent and too long to be consistent. at least a 0-60 time tells you something tangible and combined with the knowledge of transmission shows you how much power will be available. 0-60 happens way more often in daily driving than anything you would experience racing around nurburg. maybe well just have to agree to disagree but i feel at the end they are both just used as marketing ploys

Depends on how and where you drive.

When I lived further out from the city, basically in the country, the backroads I would take to certain places are very much more reminiscent of Nurburg than drag racing. I wouldn't just mosey around either. Push the car hard sometimes...much more fun than some stupid stop light drag.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm not anticipating them having a 7 minute time with this car. In this case, this should be more like what the German manufacturers used it for; before it became the 'it' thing for the supercars once the 200mph club became passe'.

Basically the 'Ring is a looped, timed section of 'real' highway with some distinctly un-track like and highly varied road sections. So testing on here allows for good evaluation of real-world at-the-limit performance characteristics in a repeatable environment. At least that's what I hope their doing.

As for your buddy's MR-2/S, what was dull about it (2ZZGE 6M swap?)? I'm looking for an entertaining, comfortable, efficient daily driver. For pure 'character' my Supra will dominate the FR-S, so that's not my top priority. It's raw, rough and fast.

good points but im still think we give a little too much weight in the ring. to each his own. i cant put my finger on what made the mr2 dull. i didnt drive it much but the clutch and shifter kept me out of rhythm and it felt heavy. maybe a better suspenion choice would have done the trick. not as telepathic as the miata. maybe its too planted and not as lively as id like. the power was nice though, while not crushing it seemed to put that car exactly where it should have been from the factory. above average but not the best. make for a hell of a daily driver though. if you want to know more about it let me know

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by OldSkoolToys

Depends on how and where you drive.

When I lived further out from the city, basically in the country, the backroads I would take to certain places are very much more reminiscent of Nurburg than drag racing. I wouldn't just mosey around either. Push the car hard sometimes...much more fun than some stupid stop light drag.

my point wasnt to put weight in the 0 to 60 times but that all this nurburg testing has no objective value. i drive a miata (and that the corolla rip) with nothing more than suspension mods and the stickiest tires i can afford through a canyon to work every day, i know where youre coming from. for us you are right. for upwards of 90 percent of who buys the car...

[[es vi: eks]]

Originally Posted by Dark

"Chinese built"- obvious issue.

My chinese made bus had the same problem. In fact almost all the manual chinese school buses had problems selecting the right gears at my old work.
Luckly it only did it in 3rd. Sometimes 1st and reverse on my bus lol

[Matador]

Originally Posted by fatoni

not really. the ring is more driver dependent and too long to be consistent. at least a 0-60 time tells you something tangible and combined with the knowledge of transmission shows you how much power will be available. 0-60 happens way more often in daily driving than anything you would experience racing around nurburg. maybe well just have to agree to disagree but i feel at the end they are both just used as marketing ploys

Do you really drive a Miata?

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm not anticipating them having a 7 minute time with this car. In this case, this should be more like what the German manufacturers used it for; before it became the 'it' thing for the supercars once the 200mph club became passe'.

Basically the 'Ring is a looped, timed section of 'real' highway with some distinctly un-track like and highly varied road sections. So testing on here allows for good evaluation of real-world at-the-limit performance characteristics in a repeatable environment. At least that's what I hope their doing.

As for your buddy's MR-2/S, what was dull about it (2ZZGE 6M swap?)? I'm looking for an entertaining, comfortable, efficient daily driver. For pure 'character' my Supra will dominate the FR-S, so that's not my top priority. It's raw, rough and fast.

This. Using the ring as a yard stick has just come into popularity, but German (and few others, Toyota included) manufacturers have been testing there for ages.

As for the time, no way it will be sub 7 minute, but I do hope it would at least beat the Cobalt SS which at 8:22 is the fastest car in that price bracket to my knowledge as well as being "officially" the fastest fwd @ the ring.

As for a 2ZZ MR-S being dull... lolwut?

[deathsythe]

I was planning on getting the after graduating from Grad school, and I've been unbelievably excited about it since we first saw concept photos and I saw the Gran Turismo video.

I was originally afraid/bummed/not gunna get one if it was branded Scion, only because, like everyone else here I'm sure, I hate the image Scion owners get/have.


All in all however, I am still looking at it fondly.


Dealbreakers for me would be:

* Nerfed specs (< 150 hp, no turbo)
* >$22,000 sticker price tag

I am also really hoping they make a model with a manumatic/tiptronic system. (I haven't been following in the past 6 months or so, so I am in the dark regarding everything save for the potential Scion name)


I will prolly be selling my Celica to my little sister, so if the FT86 disappoints, I will probably look into a used S2000 or Miata, or perhaps a new Mini Cooper. I'm also planning on getting my Class M license this summer, so that will be taken into account as well.

[huyttz]

you do realize the cobalt SS is faster than many fine RWD cars... NSX, S2000, Lotus Exige S, Boxster S, Cayman S, 335i, 350Z... i think you are expecting a lot out of Toyota, there. the cobalt SS is quite an amazing car and earned its place next to the BMW M3 E46 and R32 GT-R by being the most badass FWD car there is...

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by huyttz

you do realize the cobalt SS is faster than many fine RWD cars... NSX, S2000, Lotus Exige S, Boxster S, Cayman S, 335i, 350Z... i think you are expecting a lot out of Toyota, there. the cobalt SS is quite an amazing car and earned its place next to the BMW M3 E46 and R32 GT-R by being the most badass FWD car there is...

But it's a cobalt...

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by aliphian

0-60 matters here because we drive at least 75 on the freeway and a lot of the on ramps are very short.

So wouldn't 40-70 times matter more than? Still don't get how 0-60 matters in real day driving or even at a track (not drag strip).

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by fatoni

my point wasnt to put weight in the 0 to 60 times but that all this nurburg testing has no objective value. i drive a miata (and that the corolla rip) with nothing more than suspension mods and the stickiest tires i can afford through a canyon to work every day, i know where youre coming from. for us you are right. for upwards of 90 percent of who buys the car...

Originally Posted by fatoni

not really. the ring is more driver dependent and too long to be consistent. at least a 0-60 time tells you something tangible and combined with the knowledge of transmission shows you how much power will be available. 0-60 happens way more often in daily driving than anything you would experience racing around nurburg. maybe well just have to agree to disagree but i feel at the end they are both just used as marketing ploys

However you can argue that 0-60 times aren't even that objective since they are dependent on the driver and day as well (temp, location (sea level, at elevation....etc.)). Some cars can vary in their 0-60 times by 5-7% depending on who is testing it. Is that significant? I don't know.

Sure testing at the Ring is driver dependent, however most of the time don't they use professional drivers? Sure some drivers will be better than others. I will give you that. That is one reason why I wouldn't take only one time sample as gospel. A few samples would give a more accurate tale of the car.

The only point that I was trying to make (take driver out of the equation) is that the Ring gives you a better idea of how the car handles over all better than 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. At the Ring you have straights, ups and downs, turns, hard on the brakes, fast accelerating, straights...etc. It just gives a better "general idea" how how a car would be used in real life or at the track. When I drive I might merge onto the highway from 45 mph and have to get up to 65-70mph in a short distance. Then I might get stuck behind a driver doing 55-60 (hit the brakes) then have to slide over into the left lane doing 75mph. Just seems like a varied course like the Ring provides you with a little bit of everything so that the overall aspect of the car is taken into consideration.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by huyttz

you do realize the cobalt SS is faster than many fine RWD cars... NSX, S2000, Lotus Exige S, Boxster S, Cayman S, 335i, 350Z... i think you are expecting a lot out of Toyota, there. the cobalt SS is quite an amazing car and earned its place next to the BMW M3 E46 and R32 GT-R by being the most badass FWD car there is...

Actually, IIRC, the renault Megane took the FWD record, but yes, I am expecting a lot from the FT-86/FR-S/Subieyota blah blah blah whatever.

Not sure where you are getting your times from, But all things being equal (day/driver/weather/tyres) the Cobalt is not going to be beating any of those cars (**edit** NSX,S2000, Exige, Boxter Spider, Cayman S, E46 M3... the rest.. not so sure) around a track. Forget what you see on Wikipedia.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

the Cobalt is not going to be beating any of those cars (**edit** NSX,S2000, Exige, Boxter Spider, Cayman S, E46 M3... the rest.. not so sure) around a track. Forget what you see on Wikipedia.

I'd take the S2000 and NSX off that list. I'm sure they're faster through the corners, but there are a lot of straightaways on the nordschleife and the ss/tc makes much more power under the curve than either of them. Heck, just watch the oboard footage on youtube and see how much time the driver spends at WOT.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

However you can argue that 0-60 times aren't even that objective since they are dependent on the driver and day as well (temp, location (sea level, at elevation....etc.)). Some cars can vary in their 0-60 times by 5-7% depending on who is testing it. Is that significant? I don't know.

Sure testing at the Ring is driver dependent, however most of the time don't they use professional drivers? Sure some drivers will be better than others. I will give you that. That is one reason why I wouldn't take only one time sample as gospel. A few samples would give a more accurate tale of the car.

The only point that I was trying to make (take driver out of the equation) is that the Ring gives you a better idea of how the car handles over all better than 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. At the Ring you have straights, ups and downs, turns, hard on the brakes, fast accelerating, straights...etc. It just gives a better "general idea" how how a car would be used in real life or at the track. When I drive I might merge onto the highway from 45 mph and have to get up to 65-70mph in a short distance. Then I might get stuck behind a driver doing 55-60 (hit the brakes) then have to slide over into the left lane doing 75mph. Just seems like a varied course like the Ring provides you with a little bit of everything so that the overall aspect of the car is taken into consideration.

0-60 varies but all of those variables come into play when you are driving on a racetrack. that plus the fact that there are few drivers who know the ring since its absolutely huge. a good lap at say buttonwillow requires 13 corners without mistake. a good lap at the ring would be like 130 or something. if you could take the driver out of the equation that would work but you cant. id much rather see times for smaller tracks where a driver can be comfortable at the end of the day.

i personally dont value 0-60 but i do believe there is more information in those numbers than there is in ring times because a good driver with track knowledge is worth more than a good car at a place like that.