LeftFootBrake's White GTS AT

[LeftFootBrake]

Originally Posted by fuddbutter

Oh, i would say the other reason for no steering wheel controls is the physical size of teh wheel, its the smallest TMCA has ever made, it also has the airbag, so the controls have to be clear of that, also if they are around the inner rim there needs to be room to clear your fingers etc..

Yeah, fair call. Other than family branding aspects limiting use of the parts bin, perhaps those parts just didn't fit, exacerbating the project management issue.

[fuddbutter]

Originally Posted by proficience

Haha volume is fine... skipping a track? well that's a whole different story.

After two weeks, I still have not been able to skip one song without looking over at the bloody nav. And don't even get me started about the mediocre resistive touch screen.


/rant

ohhhh yeah, touch screen...
yeah, they should be banned haha. i have never been a fan.

I guess simple, volume and track controls would be nice..
there used to be some aftermarket wheel controls you could get..

[Cappuccino]

Sat Nav on the GTS the button next to menu allows you to skip tracks and see the sat nav at the same time

[LeftFootBrake]

One feature of the head unit I now remember is:

Originally Posted by LeftFootBrake

...Have set the unit's Automatic Sound Leveliser (ASL) to off, but perhaps the other settings are useful. Might play and let you know my thoughts.

This may be what I'm after for volume normalisation. Of course, if Fujitsu Ten's (the head unit manufacturer) very weak nav routing algorithms are an indication of their ability as a whole, I expect this feature will destroy the already pretty miserable sound quality.

I'll look into it and report back.

[proficience]

Originally Posted by Cappuccino

Sat Nav on the GTS the button next to menu allows you to skip tracks and see the sat nav at the same time

the what what?

[LeftFootBrake]

He's just talking about the side-by-side audio/map mode you can get the screen in. It actually has nothing to do with what we've been discussing, though.

[LeftFootBrake]

Looked into the Automatic Sound Leveliser feature, and the manual says it's only for detecting the noise level inside the vehicle. I thought it might be the same as the Automatic Volume Adjustment feature discussed in this technical paper by the same manufacturer. But nope, apparently our unit is too cheap/old for that feature even if it was, in all likelihood, going to further deteriorate the mediocre sound quality.

So, all the real-world driver distraction safety issues I described earlier persist. This, despite the wonderfully annoying power-on "safety first" caution screen informing you not to use the unit whilst the vehicle is in motion and forcing you to wait umpteen seconds before being able to control the unit (thereby increasing your likelihood of already being on the move before using it!). So yes, of course TMCA have all their safety regulations covered off. But I don't care about what some half-assed regulators might want (as a society we're far too eager to overly regulate and far too accepting of crap design).

An ergonomic time/motion study of drivers of this car using connected smartphones and 3rd party audio and nav apps wouldn't cast a positive glow on Toyota. And given how much better the features in those 3rd party apps are than the OEM device along with their consumer-oriented pricing, I expect such a usage scenario to become more and more commonplace. I hope this issue doesn't result in some drivers hurting themselves. I also hope it doesn't contribute to increasing my insurance costs. But I expect both. And all this for the sake of an option to have a few buttons on a steering wheel. If the root cause was for "masculine identity branding", what a very sad indictment on us all. If it was because of project management, I get it, but please rush replacement wheels with controls out as soon as possible! Either way, the local marketing department should be ashamed for trying to turn this situation into a feature. But they're just "doing their job", right? And some folk here even agree. Sigh.

[proficience]

Originally Posted by LeftFootBrake

So, all the real-world driver distraction safety issues I described earlier persist. This, despite the wonderfully annoying power-on "safety first" caution screen informing you not to use the unit whilst the vehicle is in motion and forcing you to wait umpteen seconds before being able to control the unit (thereby increasing your likelihood of already being on the move before using it!).

Hate it. This screen seems to take longer every single time lol. But I do believe the system is doing something in the background hence the little loading animation on the bottom-left. nav... y u no load faster.

Also, you can hit the audio button to control the audio while the nav is loading, then come back to it and hit 'I Agree' lol

[LeftFootBrake]

Another thing that makes you go "hmm"...

Setting the cruise control turns off the transmission sports mode. Why would they do that? Sure, no one needs sports mode on whilst in cruise control, and I'm not suggesting otherwise. But the way to achieve that is doing it "under the covers". Not by the current approach of actually turning it off and then forcing the driver to have to switch it back on once cruise control is cancelled before the next twisty bit of tarmac. I'm currently training myself to be able to find and press the button without looking. What a pointless waste. Similar to the cruise control master switch silliness I just posted about in another thread.

It's particularly frustrating when we're not given precise details of what the Auto-transmission sports mode precisely does, so even though I'm in manual mode I still feel like I'm supposed to enable it (otherwise, why let me set it whilst already in manual mode?). For all I know, having it off contributes to the tail end drop in this graph: AT vs MT Dyno

Also, I suspect the cruise control on the 86 is inferior to the GTI. I think the GTI was better able to hold speeds up hill and down dale. As I use cruise a lot, I find that a bit disappointing.

[Nardi330]

Originally Posted by LeftFootBrake

Also, I suspect the cruise control on the 86 is inferior to the GTI. I think the GTI was better able to hold speeds up hill and down dale. As I use cruise a lot, I find that a bit disappointing.

i think it's more to do with the low down torque of the GTI.

[LeftFootBrake]

Originally Posted by Nardi330

i think it's more to do with the low down torque of the GTI.

Yeah, maybe. I wonder, though... is the low down torque where cruise control sits (namely, before the notorious dip) that different between the two? Gear ratios is probably another factor and the tall gears of the auto box in combination with insufficient downshift aggressiveness in the cruise algorithms probably means not enough engine braking is occurring downhill. I'm not sure if manually changing gear cancels the cruise. If not, I'll look into possibly manually shifting down when on a decline, to preempt the over-speed.

[LeftFootBrake]

Drove my 2004 Mazda3 SP23 for the first time in a couple of months today. It now feels something like a friendly bus with its light steering, overall seating position and even less torque-to-weight (despite being a little lighter and having half a litre more displacement). I still think she rocks, though!

A few 86 updates...

• I can happily report back that you can change gears on the 86 without cancelling the cruise control. This should help overspeed on descents but I haven't had opportunity to explore the perfect technique yet.
• I have given up trying to reliably get iPhone audio via the iPod audio source. Resorting to using bluetooth for now. Just a case of hopeless head unit is hopeless I expect.
• Reverse parking (parallel or bay) when using the SAE side mirror technique isn't the easiest thing in the world. I'm frustrated we're in limbo re car head unit devices at the moment because I can't wait to integrate a rear vision camera.

[LeftFootBrake]

On another thread I was asked about simulators. I am responding here rather than over there for boring reasons.

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Forgive me; I have spent about a total of 15 minutes playing race car games so I am not in a position to question your judgement but....

Oh, it's far from being just my judgement. I expect you'll be hard pressed finding a racing driver of the future that won't have participated heavily in simulator racing (like iRacing). We are already starting to see a number of newly-minted professional drivers who got their start on simulators. That's right... not karting, not midgets, not any form of real-world racing. Straight from simulators to the real thing. And some of those drivers are achieving serious success. Also, many modern professionals participate (eg. it is not uncommon to race against SVG in the local V8 series.) If you walk up and down the pit road of any serious meet, you'll find many drivers (particularly those that don't have their heads buried in the sand) having a great deal of respect and interest in what's going on in the world of simulators. For the professionals, the benefits are mainly (1) reducing the number of practice laps required to get "sited" around a track, (2) practising concentration and (3) experimenting with setups. The virtual tracks are built from laser-based surveying equipment and are considered highly effective reproductions (aka "bump perfect"). The physics models are also now starting to get to the point where it's possible to see the results from different setups translate to the real world.

And this isn't me talking out my hat. If you take the time to scour the interwebs you will find a bunch of videos and interviews with drivers saying the same thing. And remember, some of those interviews are already stale. Nothing stays still in this area. eg. iRacing refine their physics model every 3 months.

I am not suggesting they are not fun but how does an inexpensive simulator (i.e. non 6 axis multi million dollar) help drive on the road? You have no feel of what the chassis is doing beneath you.

I hope you don't mind if I narrow the question down to "how does an inexpensive simulator help you drive a real car to its limits?", even though that's not exactly what you asked.

To shorten my answer I think it's pretty safe that I can assume you likely already know that pretty much everything about exploring the limits of a car relates to anticipating, perceiving and responding to changing tyre slip angles. There are a number of human senses that are used to do this, not just the one colloquially referred to as "seat of the pants". The other senses that translate well from simulator to real are:

• Sight. Used to compare expected yaw rate vs actual rate. eg: Visually perceiving more yaw then expected whilst cornering = rear wheels slipping first = oversteer.
• Sound. Used to compare expected grip vs obseved grip. eg: Audibly perceiving Not enough squeal = not pushing hard enough.
• Steering feel. Used to compare expected yaw rate vs actual rate. eg: eg: Perceiving a lightening of the steering force feedback whilst cornering = front wheels slipping first = understeer.

In addition, if you look on the interwebs (eg. youtube iracing videos) you will discover that many of us use multiple screens (providing 160-180 degrees field-of-vision) that allow seeing to and through the apex, facilitating proper racing line and situational awareness. We also use pressure-based brakes and some are now even using motion platforms (now that they have more consumer based in pricing).

Once again I speak from inexperience so please be gentle.

I appreciated the question and I hope I've managed to answer it in a way that encourages you to research the area further.

The key thing I'd caution you against is the possibility of narrow mindedly projecting an experience from a number of years ago onto today's experience. Technology moves pretty fast.

I would go so far as to say that I believe many guys on this forum would actually get more enjoyment for considerably less dollars by buying a different car to the 86 and then taking what would amount to a tiny proportion of those savings and investing it into a simulator. Of course, for those in a position to have both, well I can attest to that being best of all.

I got my start in simulators when I stumbled into a Forza competition at a conference and happened to win it. After seeking a more serious community that don't use any "assist nannies" and more in line with real racing I migrated to iRacing back in 2008 and have enjoyed good times and improved skills ever since. It's worth pointing out that the knowledge and skill level of the community over there is generally very high and is also a wonderful learning resource beyond the actual "wheel time" you put in. It is absolutely nothing like here, for example (no offence to any reader intended).

So, if there are any further questions please feel free to ask publicly or privately. There are no silly questions, particularly when dealing with such a niche topic.

[LeftFootBrake]

I’ve been asked a few questions about simulators, so responding here rather than individually.

Software
I have used Forza in the past. And 15 minutes on GT5. These are not the same things as iRacing. They’re fun but less realistic. Nonetheless, I think they can play a role in getting a driver’s skills raised so that they can participate more competitively in a simulator like iRacing or NetKar Pro. This includes using just a controller, as they still teach concepts like the racing line and the friction circle.
However, I would caution against having the mentality “they have the 86 and iRacing/NKP don’t” so therefore I’ll go with Forza/GT. You really need to think about what you’re looking for. The simulator companies model their cars in a more detailed fashion (normally taking months per car) than the mainstream car game manufacturers like Forza and GT do. If it’s more important than anything else for you to be driving a car that looks like an 86, then only Forza/GT5 are your candidates right now. But in my view, you’d be hurting yourself by that decision. Oh, and iRacing has both Left Hand Drive and Right Hand Drive MX-5's (NC model).
FWIW, I haven’t loaded or done a single lap in Forza/GT, etc. after subscribing to iRacing. But I expect I’d still find ‘em plenty fun.
Another real difference is in the community. The iRacing community is full of true driving enthusiasts. You will find V8 drivers, international drivers, etc. This is a very big factor if you enjoy mature racing rather than immature guys spending 15 minutes away from a First Person Shooter. Horses for courses. Serious racing mentality = iRacing. So if you don’t have a serious racing mentality (think: you don’t deliberate hit people when racing) you will probably be frustrated by iRacing and its licence levels, safety racing, leagues and so forth.

Hardware
Screens. Using multiple screens provides a nice wide Field-of-View. I recommend getting 3. This isn’t me driving, but represents my kind of screen setup (car is a Honda Performance Division ARX-01C):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNG-SVbHGHY"]Three screens around Zolder[/ame]

You can still have a good time with a single screen, though (car is a Radical SR8):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7_STE31Y0E"]Single screen around Zolder[/ame]

Wheel. I’m only familiar with a Microsoft Wheel (when using Forza) and a Logitech G25 (when using iRacing). Logitech currently have a DFGT and G27, both of which come with pedals. Either is probably a decent choice.
For those happy to spend more, Fanatec have just released their ClubSport Wheel. It is probably the best premium offering available. But please be aware that Fanatec have received what seems to be a disproportionately large number of customer service and quality complaints on the iRacing forum. But it also seems they have worked hard on this. With the CSW only just released it’s too early to tell whether it’s going to be different this time around.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BiEB6bR4GQ"]ClubSport Wheel[/ame]

Pedals. The G25/27 pedals are a very good starting point. Particularly when combined with a Bodnar Box. I happily used these for a couple of years. However, I now use pedals from Cannon Simulation Technologies (CST) and enjoy the more realistic pressure-based braking and durability. Fanatec also offer pedals and they are probably well worth considering but I don’t have any experience with them.

Seat. Obutto. I don’t use one but a new model has just been made available, which seems an excellent product. The company has been producing stuff for a while now and seems fairly well regarded.

Computer. Up to you. Beware multi-GPU video cards or multiple-video card installations, as these can introduce “stuttering” and “input lag”. I recommend getting the best single-GPU AMD or NVidia card you can afford. This is particularly important if you want to run multiple screens with lots of the eye candy features enabled at high Frames Per Second.

Retailers
http://www.logitechshop.com.au/
http://simparts.co.nz/
http://www.pagnianimports.com.au/

I’d recommend starting with a platform you can then upgrade from rather than investing too much before knowing how much you enjoy it.

Any further questions please feel free to ask.