CA Bill AB-645

[Irace86.2.0]

To catch criminals is why.

I like the way they are using DNA databases to track murder/rape/kidnapper suspects by figuring out who they are related to.

In the future, thieves, gangs, hit and run people, drunk drivers or all types of people will be deterred or be found quite easily. Evidence to prosecute will make trials swift.

[dpfarr]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

To catch criminals is why.

I like the way they are using DNA databases to track murder/rape/kidnapper suspects by figuring out who they are related to.

In the future, thieves, gangs, hit and run people, drunk drivers or all types of people will be deterred or be found quite easily. Evidence to prosecute will make trials swift.

To reiterate my point, using technology to identify who to punish is a way to eliminate the human component. My own mistrust in our police system is of police system. The beat cops, the chiefs, their unions are all corrupt in my view.

As suspicious as I am, having a program go through recordings and make decisions on who it can identify and tag for warrants or whatever is worse. Who decides who writes that program? Is there checks and balances to insure facial recognition is not biased for race or ethnicity?

Was the Patriot Act warranted? Think how much more invasive that shit would have been (maybe we actually didn’t exit that stage of history).

I get your point that you have nothing to hide and might benefit from prosecuting criminals. Consider the amount of people rape kits sitting untested, defendants waiting on some dna exonerations, police coercion for sentencing, and on and on. I don’t mean this to be disrespectful, I’m interested in adding more data to my thoughts here. How many run ins with cops have you had?

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by dpfarr

To reiterate my point, using technology to identify who to punish is a way to eliminate the human component. My own mistrust in our police system is of police system. The beat cops, the chiefs, their unions are all corrupt in my view.

As suspicious as I am, having a program go through recordings and make decisions on who it can identify and tag for warrants or whatever is worse. Who decides who writes that program? Is there checks and balances to insure facial recognition is not biased for race or ethnicity?

Was the Patriot Act warranted? Think how much more invasive that shit would have been (maybe we actually didn’t exit that stage of history).

I get your point that you have nothing to hide and might benefit from prosecuting criminals. Consider the amount of people rape kits sitting untested, defendants waiting on some dna exonerations, police coercion for sentencing, and on and on. I don’t mean this to be disrespectful, I’m interested in adding more data to my thoughts here. How many run ins with cops have you had?

Again, I don’t have a problem with it. Do a crime and get caught on camera doing it then you do the time.

I don’t know how my anecdotal experiences play into such decisions, but my brother is a K9 officer, I worked EMS for 3-4 years, so I’ve run into officers all the time there, I worked the ED for a decade, so there, it seems like half the nurses are married to law enforcement, so I’ve known many socially, and I’ve had my share of encounters with cops being pulled over or being in the car when a friend or family was pulled over.

[dpfarr]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Again, I don’t have a problem with it. Do a crime and get caught on camera doing it then you do the time.

I don’t know how my anecdotal experiences play into such decisions, but my brother is a K9 officer, I worked EMS for 3-4 years, so I’ve run into officers all the time there, I worked the ED for a decade, so there, it seems like half the nurses are married to law enforcement, so I’ve known many socially, and I’ve had my share of encounters with cops being pulled over or being in the car when a friend or family was pulled over.

The question was to understand if you’ve ever been targeted for something while just being normal. I get that this started as the bill and transformed to a conversation about widening past speeding cams, then to larger aspects of biometrics.

I’m not different than you in feeling responsible if I was ripping some corners through town and got popped. My bad, I’m not going to bitch and moan about being a victim to the tyranny of the state you know? If you pull me over and start accusing me of being Mr drifter because I have a brz, that’s a different problem. I hope you don’t have to imagine a scenario where you can extrapolate that analogy but place other human attributes in place of vehicle type.

I’ve had some dumb interactions with cops. Someone blamed me for stealing a camera and an officer tried to coerce me to letting him search my house if I was innocent. Nope. Stopped leaving the skatepark because I had no light on my bike and used that as a means to search and detain me. Stopped because my truck wasn’t closed all the way and detained because I had tattoos like “a suspect”. These are vanilla examples, but I’m a boring white dude. It wasn’t too far from my house Stephon Clarke was shot. There’s a decent episode of Morning Edition detailing the Ahmaud Abrery incident.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well, this is a speed camera pilot program, and I was referring to cars that already have camera vision for autonomous driving, sentry, etc like Teslas, so it wouldn't be necessary to put cameras everywhere when cameras would already be everywhere. We have Amber Alerts to enable eyes to be on the lookout for the cars of child kidnappers, so I just see this as adding more eyes.

There is nothing stopping anyone from putting up a camera or going out on the street and filming people. Everything gets plastered on social media. I think the idea of being around cameras is little different than being around a busy city with eyes watching. The difference is the cameras might be used to do some good.

You say thieves will just wear a hoodie and mask. Are they never going to go home and take off their mask? I linked car camera system like the TED Talk video I posted above would be capable of potentially following these people back to their home address or into an identifiable car. What if the car that doesn't have a license plate isn't traceable because they take a ride through the country, but three days later the distinct combination of custom wheels and fender dent identifies the car on someone's camera, and they can make an arrest. This will happen someday for sure.

This mindset is truly amazing. In a nutshell you want to give authorities absolute authority to view and analyze everything in our lives. You know, for safety. To protect us.

All those sci-fi dystopian future movies with authoritarian governments, and you always wonder how those happened in the first place? 100% the mindset above, that's how. Oh yes, do that, pass this, I'll be safer and privacy isn't that important anyway. Truly truly amazing. If you want to improve things invest in community and society and education. Signing away God given rights to the government isn't the answer. In the meantime intentional mismanagement and strife created by the government will always give them a reason to ask for more more more.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

This mindset is truly amazing. In a nutshell you want to give authorities absolute authority to view and analyze everything in our lives. You know, for safety. To protect us.

All those sci-fi dystopian future movies with authoritarian governments, and you always wonder how those happened in the first place? 100% the mindset above, that's how. Oh yes, do that, pass this, I'll be safer and privacy isn't that important anyway. Truly truly amazing. If you want to improve things invest in community and society and education. Signing away God given rights to the government isn't the answer. In the meantime intentional mismanagement and strife created by the government will always give them a reason to ask for more more more.

They don't believe in God

[FR-S2GT86]

Back the blue....or it will happen to you!

[Lantanafrs2]

Using counterfeit bills can be a pain in the neck

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

This mindset is truly amazing. In a nutshell you want to give authorities absolute authority to view and analyze everything in our lives. You know, for safety. To protect us.

All those sci-fi dystopian future movies with authoritarian governments, and you always wonder how those happened in the first place? 100% the mindset above, that's how. Oh yes, do that, pass this, I'll be safer and privacy isn't that important anyway. Truly truly amazing. If you want to improve things invest in community and society and education. Signing away God given rights to the government isn't the answer. In the meantime intentional mismanagement and strife created by the government will always give them a reason to ask for more more more.

That really wasn't the nutshell at all, but it is easier to strawman someone's argument than addressing what they said directly. Try to take what I said literally instead of exaggerating it and projecting your own fears on top of it.

I'm not declaring that governments should have absolute authority to view and analyze everything in our lives.

Consider this: many people give FB, IG, and other social media access to their entire lives; Google and Amazon probably know more about you than your family; your private information and what you buy and where you bought it is captured by banks, credit card companies, your phone and by your internet provider. You give up mountains of data to private companies. This is the beginnings of fascism the second it is linked with government and backed by a theocratic regime, but you seem to be more worried about the government and not the corporations harboring this data. I get the concern.

I think the problem is that you have it backwards. You think the problem is using tools of surveillance, but the problem is creating the theocratic regime that then uses these tools (eg; V for Vendetta). You are blaming the guns for causing murderers, and not murderers for using guns. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. And we can say the same thing with nuclear weapons. Likewise, surveillance tools are only bad in the hands of those who would abuse it. We are already being surveyed by private industries. Like in The Dark Knight, the cellphone surveillance system was deemed unethical by Lucius Fox (Morgan Freeman), yet its use was ethical; he mostly was concerned with abuse, not its use. Clearly, you don't trust the government or systems of cooperation between businesses and government, yet you trust corporations with all this data (the cellphone surveillance system from The Dark Knight exists and is in use by them), and you trust the government with a massive amount of weapons. Hmmm, seems inconsistent, unless you aren't like the average person and don't have social media or use any of the systems I mentioned, and maybe you would like the government to greatly reduce the size of the military.

Listen, right now Tesla could be sitting on video taken from multiple cars of someone shooting someone in cold blood on the streets. Should they provide that to authorities or should it remain confidential per the user agreement? It is like a priest keeping a confession of rape, murder or molestation confidential because they are bound my creed. What I am saying is that not ALL information, but only clear crimes, especially felonies, should be reported, and if it could be used like The Dark Knight cellphone system then it could be a powerful tool to bring people to justice.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

They don't believe in God

Nor do they believe in Santa Claus. They grew up and stopped believing in magical thinking nonsense.

What's your boyfriend's name again?

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Nor do they believe in Santa Claus. They grew up and stopped believing in magical thinking nonsense.

What's your boyfriend's name again?

Only 10 thousand words tonight? You're slacking

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

Only 10 thousand words tonight? You're slacking

I'd use less, but there are quite a few "special people" here that require explanations with lots of small, simple words. I don't always have time to explain shit. :dunno:

[dpfarr]

The guns don’t kill people, people kill people is such a stupid fucking counter. Do people kill one another with bare fists at the same frequency as guns? Or do they like beat each other with a severed limb? They kill peoples with guns, which one could accurately say the guns kill people. Anti nuclear proliferation means people won’t die from nuclear weapons.

In regards to comparing private companies and their surveillance. No, I’d rather not they do it either. I don’t want to be persuaded into buying some dumb shit because I searched it and can’t pass up this sale. Likewise, I don’t want some Tesla recognizing my car as high frequency offender and start recording. I’m not sliding every corner I see. Never do it if I see a pedestrian. Most likely not if there’s another car on the road. Imagine someone’s model 3 in their driveway erroneously causing you tickets that you have to fight because you have a twin. That’s analogous to the shit happening scanning for target phrases typed, online gaming, etc in the war on terror. Furthermore, your example on Teslas recording; would they have a vested interest to try to get other cars off the road? Chargers doing donuts in neighborhood intersections? I absolutely do not trust theocratic management of this technology.

I challenge you to give analysis to your own bias in this. Do you have a different sense of justice based on your relationship to officers and persecution? If you can come up with some thoughts on that, try to extrapolate that to this issue.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by dpfarr

The guns don’t kill people, people kill people is such a stupid fucking counter. Do people kill one another with bare fists at the same frequency as guns? Or do they like beat each other with a severed limb? They kill peoples with guns, which one could accurately say the guns kill people. Anti nuclear proliferation means people won’t die from nuclear weapons.

In regards to comparing private companies and their surveillance. No, I’d rather not they do it either. I don’t want to be persuaded into buying some dumb shit because I searched it and can’t pass up this sale. Likewise, I don’t want some Tesla recognizing my car as high frequency offender and start recording. I’m not sliding every corner I see. Never do it if I see a pedestrian. Most likely not if there’s another car on the road. Imagine someone’s model 3 in their driveway erroneously causing you tickets that you have to fight because you have a twin. That’s analogous to the shit happening scanning for target phrases typed, online gaming, etc in the war on terror. Furthermore, your example on Teslas recording; would they have a vested interest to try to get other cars off the road? Chargers doing donuts in neighborhood intersections? I absolutely do not trust theocratic management of this technology.

I challenge you to give analysis to your own bias in this. Do you have a different sense of justice based on your relationship to officers and persecution? If you can come up with some thoughts on that, try to extrapolate that to this issue.

The point of the gun comment is that guns are just a tool. They are effective, but they are just a tool. They have to be in the hands of someone bad. A car could be a deadly weapon or anything, but guns are just effective and common. The majority of gun deaths are suicide. There are many ways to commit suicide easily, but pulling a trigger is fast, easy and effective. It isn't 100%, even in suicide. I'm been in the room for many people who missed, but I'm getting off topic. The point is that a surveillance system would be a powerful tool/system, so it would need security and abuse controls, but I think the benefits exceed the risks; I think the risks are exaggerated to the worst case scenario when we are all living with far more surveillance already in place, and don't seem to have any major issues like people here are suggesting. It is far more likely that a gun would be abused or get into the wrong hands than a surveillance system like I have suggested.

You said you would rather companies not do it too, but it is happening a lot, yet everyone continues to use social media, continues to buy smart phones, continues to use systems that capture their data, so clearly, the impact of the surveillance is minimal annoyances with targeted advertising.

Your doom and gloom scenario is having to defend yourself against video evidence of you not doing a crime, in the case that the system thinks you did a crime based on bad video evidence. You afraid you might have a doppelgänger? Fortunately video testimony is more reliable than eye witness testimony. Every system has flaws. My mom got a parking ticket from a city a hundred miles away on a day when she was at work and not a hundred miles away. Why? Because some cop/traffic officer wrote down the wrong information. Every system isn't perfect, but that isn't a reason to not do something.


Source

Nuclear weapons are also referred to as nuclear deterrents. They work. You can't expect to rid the world of nuclear weapons, so having nuclear weapons is the best deterrent. It is dam hard to attack or invade a country that has nukes. It is like a thief going into someone's house when they know the residents are armed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterr...%20destruction.

I use to be more on the side that we shouldn't be wasting so much money and taxes locking up non-violent criminals. We shouldn't be prosecuting people who are addicts. We should be dealing with the social problems that lead to addiction, poverty, etc, and that hasn't changed. The police have their hands full and so do the courts. The lawyers of living it up. So what we have now is increasing lawlessness, and it is prevalent in many areas of society. What we need are better systems for evidence collection, so we can put away the people that should be put away (murders, rapists, kidnappers, thieves, traffickers, etc). As it relates to your average Joe speeder, fines and points and raising their insurance rates is enough motivation, so speed cameras could make a difference there, but what I think would be better is a system to go after the really egregious offenders and instigators. Seems like for everyone getting a speeding ticket for going ten over, there is some clown getting away with doing a donut at a gas station at 2am.