New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by KiK

I'd be more open to some takes here if the hypocrisy wasn't so high. The Toyota Prius exists for almost 26 years yet some people here willingly bought a sports car (which is not a necessity) and them modded the shit out of it.

As many people "need" a Prius as they "need" a 86. Neither is a necessity, there is always something more efficient.

By the way when I went from my previous daily driver to the 86 I almost doubled my fuel economy. The FRS is my Prius.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by KiK

I find it hilarious seeing people on this forum running decatted loud cars with low AFR tunes, big turbos, making unnecessary power numbers preaching how all of this political BS is necessary.

I'd be more open to some takes here if the hypocrisy wasn't so high. The Toyota Prius exists for almost 26 years yet some people here willingly bought a sports car (which is not a necessity) and them modded the shit out of it.

Good technology does not need legislation to force people to adopt it. That's a fact.

Forcing everyone to change to EVs against their will is no different then switching all straws to disgusting paper straws that ruin how your coke tastes and feels while doing jack for the environment in a measurable way.

I don't really see anyone making personal attacks on people's choices. I don't really think trying to rate each other's carbon footprints is very effective. I could drive a turbo K24 swapped 86 as my daily (I do), but I could have a smaller carbon footprint than a Prius owner. I drove 5k miles last year, which is about a third of what the average person drives, so my 20-25 mpgs might be equal to a person with a car that gets 60-75 mpgs, in terms of carbon footprint. Obviously, it could be better if I drove a Prius, maybe. Some have compared a Prius to a Jeep in terms of lifetime carbon emissions at one point in time, so maybe not, but the Prius is probably better now. Things can be complicated. Maybe I pay extra on my PGE for renewably resourced energy (I do), so does that mean I can drive the car I want instead of a Prius? I don't think blaming individuals for system and societal problems is the most effective way to get change. It can work, but that typically doesn't win a debate, nor is it very effective over a larger audience in getting the point across about this issue related to the changes happening in our near future.

Would you pay taxes if you didn't have to? Would you drive slow if there were no speed limits everywhere? Do you think industries wouldn't pollute more and resort to dangerous manufacturing processes in an effort to help out their shareholders more if regulations didn't exist? People clearly don't need trucks and SUVs, but that is what everyone is buying. Maybe people don't always align their interests what is best for their family, health, society, etc. A treadmill is a good piece of technology, but apparently a couch, ice cream and a TV is better technology for most Americans. Get the point? If not, I'll elaborate.

EVs will be cheaper, faster, easier to maintain, last longer, be more reliable, be more enjoyable to operate (for the majority of people) than ICEs, but a change to EVs won't happen fast without investment and encouragement. We are still in the innovators stage at 2.2% of cars being EVs, despite the Model 3 and Y being the most popular cars; they and EVs are still a fraction of total cars sold. Like you may remember from chemistry, the movement of products to reactants is moving from a state of stability to stability (happiness, you could say like from ICEs now to EVs in the future with EVs being cheaper, better, etc, like how reactants like to be at a lower energy state), but it is the transition that is unpleasant and energy intensive. It takes a lot of energy to go from reactants to products, but that transition can be sped up with an enzyme that catalyzes the reaction. In this case, the government is that enzyme that is speeding things to a better (inevitable) future. It would happen eventually on its own, but estimates suggest that waiting would be more expensive.

Private investment can be much slower than private investment with the addition of more government investment. Surprise, surprise! For instance, the government has invested a lot in solar in terms of creating more demand through tax incentives (which leads to more private investment), through R&D grants and through creating more demand through direct purchases in energy projects. I posed this in the Expert Prognosis For The Planet thread, but solar is down to $13.32/MWh, which is a fraction of nuclear and fossil fuels, and it use to be over $1000/MWh, so the investment seems to have paid off.

[Arthur-A]

A lot of sects and cults were founded in California, lol.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Arthur-A

A lot of sects and cults were founded in California, lol.

Far more outside of it

[LRNAD90]

Sadly, Maryland is pushing to do the same..

Wish people understood this is not about the environment, but whatever I guess..

https://governor.maryland.gov/news/p...te-Change.aspx

[Dadhawk]

On a related note, and not sure if this is a good sign, a bad sign or just a sign it has become normalized but Woot has Lectron EV chargers and converters on sale today in "Tools and Gardens".

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by LRNAD90

Sadly, Maryland is pushing to do the same..

Wish people understood this is not about the environment, but whatever I guess..

https://governor.maryland.gov/news/p...te-Change.aspx

It is definitely more than just the environment, several of which reasons are mentioned in the article.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

On a related note, and not sure if this is a good sign, a bad sign or just a sign it has become normalized but Woot has Lectron EV chargers and converters on sale today in "Tools and Gardens".

You have probably heard of Moore's Law, but have you heard of Wright's Law? Wright's Law basically says that a doubling of production leads to a 20% drop in price. Prices of EVs and EV products should drop over time like we see of many technologies.

https://canadiancor.com/wrights-law-...ct-the-future/

The prices of batteries will continue to drop as the industry gets more and more mature. The price drop has been $53,400 for a 50kWh pack in eleven years. We should see the cost of the rest of the car drop too as sales increase, but specific components like the motors should drop, wiring should drop, especially when the switch to 48v systems, etc. Over time, the material choices and improvements in technology should either enhance the car or make the cars cheaper and cheaper like we have seen so far or like we have seen with solar. Even though solar is mature, prices keep dropping and innovation is still going strong; solar just saw an efficiency breakthrough that will increase their energy generation by 50-100%, so as cheap as they have become, they will be getting even cheaper.

A price drop of the batteries to $100/kWh is the predicted price that puts the vehicles at price parity with ICEs. Currently, the market shows 3% of new car sales were EVs, so following Wright's Law, if that doubles to 6% then a 15-20% price drop, and doubles to to 12% then another 15-50% drop, doubles to 24%, doubles to 50%, doubles to 100% then the cost of a battery should drop from $127 per kWh to $41.6-$56.4 per kWh. This would drop the price of producing the 50 kw\Wh battery by $4k-4.5k.

As an industry, all cars should be getting cheaper if they all move to 48v, all move to gigacastings, all move to more automation, etc, which is where things seem to be heading. But EVs should see the most gains in price drop over legacy vehicles. There is still a lot of development to be made with cheaper materials for batteries, smaller motors that are more powerful like the radial flux motors, drop in electricity for charging, availability of superchargers, etc., besides the drop due to scales of volume. In aggregate, the cost to own an ICE versus EV will be growing wider and wider with the EV the clear winner.

[LRNAD90]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is definitely more than just the environment, several of which reasons are mentioned in the article.

If EVs are so wonderful, and the answer to everyone's dreams, government would not need to mandate the end of ICE vehicle production, nor provide hefty incentives to purchase EVs.

The model know as a Free Market would drive the change, but the change is not being driven by people's choice, it's being driven by government mandates.

Hate to break it to everyone, its not about cleaner air, lower instances of "respiratory and cardiovascular illness and associated lost work days" or better lower cost living for anyone..

I hope you are not going to tell me next that people had the choice of being vaccinated too? Sure, if you didn't mind loosing your livelihood, freedom to travel or be provided healthcare, and being labeled as the reason Covid continued to spread...

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by LRNAD90

Sadly, Maryland is pushing to do the same..

Wish people understood this is not about the environment, but whatever I guess..

https://governor.maryland.gov/news/p...te-Change.aspx

How does one "combat the EFFECTS of climate change "? I just make sure my ac is well maintained.

[Lantanafrs2]

It's all about control

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by LRNAD90

If EVs are so wonderful, and the answer to everyone's dreams, government would not need to mandate the end of ICE vehicle production, nor provide hefty incentives to purchase EVs.

The model know as a Free Market would drive the change, but the change is not being driven by people's choice, it's being driven by government mandates.

Hate to break it to everyone, its not about cleaner air, lower instances of "respiratory and cardiovascular illness and associated lost work days" or better lower cost living for anyone..

I hope you are not going to tell me next that people had the choice of being vaccinated too? Sure, if you didn't mind loosing your livelihood, freedom to travel or be provided healthcare, and being labeled as the reason Covid continued to spread...

If oil is so wonderful, and the answer to everyone's dreams, government would not need to provide hefty tax incentives, subsidies and grants to oil producers. See what I did there? I used your words, but swapped EVs and oil, and it worked the same. Also, it's being hastened by government mandates. It would get there on its own just the same in a free market system.

You couldn't be more wrong about the role of government in advancing the economy. The government is basically insurance to invest. Without the government, research and development and the rate of innovation in pharmaceuticals, technology, medicine, etc would be drastically slowed. Neil is talking about space exploration needing to be led by government investment, but he hit the nail on the head that government assumes the risk, funds investment, funds research and development, kickstarts the foundation for private industries to be able to invest with confidence on a predictable rate of return.

The main reasons the government is hastening this transition, along with transitioning almost every industry off fossil fuels, is because of climate change, and its related costs, and because of energy-independence/energy-stability due to running out of oil. Why do you think they are doing it if not for that?

A lot of this investment has paid off with solar and wind now significantly cheaper than fossil fuels and nuclear, in some cases, by a factor of ten. It'll definitely pay off to move to EVs someday.

Skip to 7:18

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

It's all about control

Who and why do they want to control you? You special bro?

[LRNAD90]

Irace86.2.0 Born and raised in CA by chance?

The world is not running out of oil (or natural gas), and climate change is just part of justifying the agenda, and nothing more. I'm sure you feel I'm an idiot, and that has been the plan all along.

Maybe it will play out in our lifetime to prove one of us correct and the other wrong, maybe not, but I'm not going to go on arguing about it with one who has clearly drank the Kool Aid.

That is all I am going to say. You have your opinion, and I have mine. To others reading this, for every point there are valid counterpoints out there. Look for the ones that are suppressed, and not covered by the mainstream media if you are looking for truths.

I just pray enough people wake up soon enough to avert the disaster (I beleive) we are headed for. I have little hope, but maybe..

P.S. - Your mocking of Lantanafrs2 is no different than CNN, MSN, the Democratic Party and all the other agenda pushing organizations, shame those who don't comply..

You can be proud that you are a good little soldier.