New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Dadhawk]

I've considered buying an EV bike but if you do any serious riding the range isn't there, similar to what @Irace86.2.0 eludes too. Those that have a decent range (like the Zero SR/S @ 227 miles) are the wrong type bike for me (I'm all cruising or tour, most are not that) and are too tall.

Hydrogen (although I'm an OG on Team Hydrogen) just doesn't make sense any longer because there is no focus on infrastructure. If they start working on it where it makes most sense (trucking and other long haul transportation) then maybe the infrastructure would develop but that doesn't seem likely.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I've considered buying an BEV bike but if you do any serious riding the range isn't there, similar to what @Irace86.2.0 eludes too. Those that have a decent range (like the Zero SR/S @ 227 miles) are the wrong type bike for me (I'm all cruising or tour, most are not that) and are too tall.

Hydrogen (although I'm an OG on Team Hydrogen) just doesn't make sense any longer because there is no focus on infrastructure. If they start working on it where it makes most sense (trucking and other long haul transportation) then maybe the infrastructure would develop but that doesn't seem likely.

I never paid much attention to hydrogen but bike manufacturers seem to be serious about it. We shall see.....

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I never paid much attention to hydrogen but bike manufacturers seem to be serious about it. We shall see.....

I dont think it'll gain much traction beyond NICHE level unless someone is willing to spend the gobs of money utilizing the extraction process (which i hear is very energy hungry and not very efficient) and building up the infrastructure (which as far as i know only big oil companies can afford to take the hit and they only build it out if they feel like it). Up here in Canada the only hydrogen fueling stations are in BC and maybe some parts of Quebec, nowhere else (and even then its only like 10-15 stations spread out in the large urban centres). Alberta wants to become a hydrogen supplier (somewhat of a natural transition away from oil/gas, as those would be large sources of hydrogen) so i think there could be a few stations opening up here in the near future.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

^why did covid stop you from riding a motorcycle?

I ride in groups and solo, so the group thing went out when COVID hit because of dining restrictions and lockdowns, as we would typically stop half way to eat lunch. We just never really got into making group plans. I work in the ED, so some people were weary about hanging out together for those moments when we were likely not to be riding or social distancing. In light of what the ED was going through, I thought high risk behavior wasn't all too wise either, solo or group. Staff in the hospital tended to look down on people who were engaged in high risk activities when the hospital systems were heavily impacted and often at zero capacity for ICU beds or any beds. I just never got motivated between to take the bike out. That, and my bike had been trapped in a single car garage behind a car that was immobile at multiple points over the last few years when the engine blew 4/21, and I did a K24 swap. Currently the battery is dead, and I need to charge it before I get it on the road finally now that I am done with nursing school and have some free time.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I never paid much attention to hydrogen but bike manufacturers seem to be serious about it. We shall see.....

Hydrogen fuel cells can convert hydrogen into power or range at about twice the efficiency of ICEs running on hydrogen. The big problem with hydrogen ICEs is storage of compressed hydrogen. There will likely be less range than with a EV bike, as Jason mentions in the video below.

The better source of hydrogen would be ammonia because it is a stable liquid at room temperature. It is 95% more efficient to extract hydrogen from ammonia than from the electrolysis of water, so ammonia would be better, but by weight, hydrogen is 17% of ammonia. My Ducati Monster has a 15L gas tank, which is 15kg, so 17% of that would be 2.55kg of H2. As you can see, 2.55kg of ammonia is able to fit in a much tighter space than the compressed hydrogen. My Ducati gets anywhere from 43mpg at cruising to less than 25mpg when racing through the canyons. This would give a motorcycle with a 43mpg economy a mpkg range of 114 miles according to Jason's math. There would need to be hydrolysis systems on the motorcycle, and that process would consume energy, unless it could be sourced from the exhaust gases. The engineers pursuing this not only have engineering constraints, but infrastructure constraints.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Hydrogen fuel cells can convert hydrogen into power or range at about twice the efficiency of ICEs running on hydrogen. The big problem with hydrogen ICEs is storage of compressed hydrogen. There will likely be less range than with a EV bike, as Jason mentions in the video below.

The better source of hydrogen would be ammonia because it is a stable liquid at room temperature. It is 95% more efficient to extract hydrogen from ammonia than from the electrolysis of water, so ammonia would be better, but by weight, hydrogen is 17% of ammonia. My Ducati Monster has a 15L gas tank, which is 15kg, so 17% of that would be 2.55kg of H2. As you can see, 2.55kg of ammonia is able to fit in a much tighter space than the compressed hydrogen. My Ducati gets anywhere from 43mpg at cruising to less than 25mpg when racing through the canyons. This would give a motorcycle with a 43mpg economy a mpkg range of 114 miles according to Jason's math. There would need to be hydrolysis systems on the motorcycle, and that process would consume energy, unless it could be sourced from the exhaust gases. The engineers pursuing this not only have engineering constraints, but infrastructure constraints.

I have a feeling that oem engineers may know more than a YouTube content creator

[bcj]

Had tanks of ammonia at the plant for developing blueprints going on decades.
Massive safety and compliance training for anyone allowed to approach the vicinity.
Similar to cryogenic materials we had big tanks of too. Safe to use under strictly controlled circumstances, until ...
Think mustard gas or sarin levels of carnage.
300 ppm over a period of 30 minutes gets you a Safety & 'Elf notation and a trip to the casualty dept.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by bcj

Had tanks of ammonia at the plant for developing blueprints going on decades.
Massive safety and compliance training for anyone allowed to approach the vicinity.
Similar to cryogenic materials we had big tanks of too. Safe to use under strictly controlled circumstances, until ...
Think mustard gas or sarin levels of carnage.
300 ppm over a period of 30 minutes gets you a Safety & 'Elf notation and a trip to the casualty dept.

Yeah, nasty stuff. Most commercial ammonia is ammonia hydroxide at 30% mixed with water, so yes, it would be something pungent at 100% for a fuel source. It is expensive too, so it seems far more reasonable to make synthetic fuels from green energy and carbon capture than trying to make cars run on ammonia unless economies of scale change things. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a way for hydrogen ICEs being a thing, even on motorcycles.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I have a feeling that oem engineers may know more than a YouTube content creator

Probably, but he is a mechanical engineer. He isn't naive or a novice. I'm sure there are very smart people working on hydrogen ICEs, but unfortunately there are limits to the physics. Also, a lot of what he took from those videos are from the manufactures own words like in regards to the liquid hydrogen BMW.

If ethanol and other biofuels can be made from green energy in renewable ways, for low-volume, low-use cars and motorcycles, it seems like that is the way to go for them.

Hydrogen fuel cell EVs are more efficient at converting hydrogen to motion than hydrogen ICEs, yet they have a storage problem with hydrogen tanks, so ICEs are just going to be worse. The physics of that can't really change.

[Arthur-A]

"eVs ArE gOoD fOr ThE eNvIrOnMeNt"

[Arthur-A]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

I have a feeling that oem engineers may know more than a YouTube content creator

It's called "Engineering Explained", bro. Gotta trust him, bro.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Arthur-A

"eVs ArE gOoD fOr ThE eNvIrOnMeNt"

Has nothing to do with EVs other than some of the vehicles happen to be EVs but thanks for playing.

[wbradley]

The gratuitous use of alternating capital letters seems to be a favourite tool of online trolls everywhere. It's supposed to indicate extreme sarcasm. It's annoying.

Maybe one day we'll all be driving on Ammonia Avenue.

[soundman98]

i really think hydrogens time has passed for the moment, unless there's something discovered that either makes it safer/easier to produce, or we discover something about lithium that makes it go the way of asbestos.

we know how to make hydrogen, we know how to transport it. for the large part, most of that has remained unchanged. and the production, storage, and transport needs are what kicks it off the table when compared to lithium power storage techniques.