Tesla "Full Self Driving" not capable of autonomous driving

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Does the tax credit actually take the amount off the price of the car or is it just something you put into your taxes and you dont actually get that savings until your taxes are filed?

In which case you are still paying full up front cost until you get the rebate money back (which you may or may not even use to put towards your car.....)

Depends on the state. Federal is a tax credit.

https://electrek.co/2022/10/05/ev-ta...tric-vehicles/

Yes, someone could spend the tax money any way they want. It is not earmarked for anything. That fact doesn't really change the financial position. If anything, some might like the idea of buying a car and getting some cash for downpayment on a kitchen remodel.

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

I rode in a Dual motor Model 3. Straight-line performance aside it's a 2003 Saturn Ion up in there. I even recognized the same shit steering wheel material. lol, This is a regular mid-sized car for $45-55k. The levels of refinement, choice of material, and design fit and finish are not that of a luxury vehicle. My co-worker's 21' Accord Sport 2.0T feels like stepping into a spaceship vs the model 3. The model 3 makes sense at $38000 all day, but it's not. Bland interior, bland exterior. Sit in a $45k Model 3 vs any equivalently priced Lexus and lie to yourself that the Tesla is the nicer vehicle. I came from a 2008 CRV and the Model 3 is the only modern car that was able to make me say, "Is this it?", the second I close the door.


Maybe I have been looking at it all wrong. It's like a Chrysler 300C SRT. Fast and "luxurious". What was the profit margin on a Model 3, something like 29%, yeah it's just over priced. $36000 into the car that starts at $45000. Meanwhile a Camry pull $1200 a unit. All the stuff you mentioned doesn't add much to the cost of manufacture as it turns out.. I'm sure there is a cost break down and production capacity analysis Tesla use to price vehicles. This was not worth it.

You must have sat in a very nice Saturn then.

As for the Corolla vs. M3 argument, well one is vastly faster than the other, for a start. I rented a US-spec Corolla last September and drove it from Vegas to Yellowstone and back. While it's arguably a lot nicer than a 2000s economy car, it remains an economy car. Lots of road noise at highway speed, rough under load, basic sound system, slow, etc.
The self-driving systems were nice but were only usable about 50% of the time. Lane keep assist had a strong tendency to go "screw it" mid-turn and put you back in charge with little notice.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great car for the money, and both the manual and hybrids (especially w/ 4wd) would be great buys, and about as much car as anyone will ever need. They're just not particularly nice.

At similar cost of ownership, it'd be daft to take the Corolla over a Model 3, unless you're driving long road trips on a regular basis.

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Depends on the state. Federal is a tax credit.

https://electrek.co/2022/10/05/ev-ta...tric-vehicles/

Yes, someone could spend the tax money any way they want. It is not earmarked for anything. That fact doesn't really change the financial position. If anything, some might like the idea of buying a car and getting some cash for downpayment on a kitchen remodel.

How much does one have to make to qualify for the full credit? And how does that compare to the average US wage?

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by alex87f

How much does one have to make to qualify for the full credit? And how does that compare to the average US wage?

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductio...-2023-or-after

Also, the details on the qualifying vehicles:

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductio...-2023-or-after

Note there is a gap right now where most US built and qualified cars receive the full tax credit. This will end sometime in March when the Feds release the guidance on battery content. At that time, most cars will fall back to the 1/2 credit.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by alex87f

At similar cost of ownership, it'd be daft to take the Corolla over a Model 3, unless you're driving long road trips on a regular basis.

That is a valid argument, that most buyers will completely ignore. If this really mattered to most buyers, we'd all be buying a base level vehicle.

Also, it seems to me that those buying a Corolla are likely buying it for a situation where an EV is not the best fit, for example, single car in a family, buying it for a kid off to college, etc, etc, etc.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Oh really? Bold claims I would say. Tesla has some of the best engineers in the world. What has Ford done that has surpassed Tesla in technology?

I don't think Tesla has ever claimed to be progressive in the work space. Musk is pretty anti-union, workers have been fired for smoking pot, and he has been fairly ruthless, as a boss, but the company is run very differently than most companies, especially car companies. They make changes at the speed of a startup, and that is what Musk refers to different departments, as just a bunch of different startups. The communication and organizational structure is outlined really well in the last investor presentation. I highly doubt Ford is on the same level there, but yeah, they might have put in a few transgender bathrooms. Meanwhile, Musk is estranged from his transgender kid.

That is why we have so many different vehicles because design is very subjective, so I look at the interior of my car and Audi and like it, but I look at a Mercedes interior and think it is just way too much, and I don't like the exteriors either, nor most of BMW's new cars. To each their own. The Cybertruk is going to be someone's wet dream, and it will have a cult following, for sure. I could throw up on the design, but that is me.

I guess time will tell. Part of me hopes Dyer is right. As we’ve discussed in the past, I have serious concerns with Tesla’s marketing strategy and despise Elon Musk as a human being. I freely admit my attitude towards Musk colors my view of the company and its products.

That said, I really do hope to see the eV market develop to the point that they become just another car company.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Oh really? Bold claims I would say. Tesla has some of the best engineers in the world. What has Ford done that has surpassed Tesla in technology?

I don't think Tesla has ever claimed to be progressive in the work space. Musk is pretty anti-union, workers have been fired for smoking pot, and he has been fairly ruthless, as a boss, but the company is run very differently than most companies, especially car companies. They make changes at the speed of a startup, and that is what Musk refers to different departments, as just a bunch of different startups. The communication and organizational structure is outlined really well in the last investor presentation. I highly doubt Ford is on the same level there, but yeah, they might have put in a few transgender bathrooms. Meanwhile, Musk is estranged from his transgender kid.

That is why we have so many different vehicles because design is very subjective, so I look at the interior of my car and Audi and like it, but I look at a Mercedes interior and think it is just way too much, and I don't like the exteriors either, nor most of BMW's new cars. To each their own. The Cybertruk is going to be someone's wet dream, and it will have a cult following, for sure. I could throw up on the design, but that is me.

Bold statement. But also meaningless.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Bold statement. But also meaningless.

Yeah, meaningless, it wasn't my bold statements. I was just parroting what's been said by others, while considering the history of Tesla sucking up all of the best engineers from Silicon Valley's best companies like Apple, Google, etc. Ultimately, Ford could be doing less with more or could be making wild strides in engineering, surpassing Tesla, but it has yet to be seen. I'd love to see the analysis.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/06/the-...-students.html

https://electrek.co/2020/11/11/tesla...ive-advantage/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...h=4624993544b8

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yeah, meaningless, it wasn't my bold statements. I was just parroting what's been said by others, while considering the history of Tesla sucking up all of the best engineers from Silicon Valley's best companies like Apple, Google, etc. Ultimately, Ford could be doing less with more or could be making wild strides in engineering, surpassing Tesla, but it has yet to be seen. I'd love to see the analysis.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/06/the-...-students.html

https://electrek.co/2020/11/11/tesla...ive-advantage/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...h=4624993544b8

None of those articles make any statement of the quality of Tesla's engineers or engineering.

Oh but one does contain this gem...

It’s a magnetic effect and the magnet is Elon, the world’s most brilliant engineer.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Spuds

None of those articles make any statement of the quality of Tesla's engineers or engineering.

Oh but one does contain this gem...

Which is why I said, "Yeah, meaningless." I was agreeing with your point, which is why I also said Ford could be doing more with less.

FWIW, that interviewee is a fanboy selling Tesla aftermarket products. Probably biased is an understatement.

[alex87f]

With Musk's policy in regards to some workplace topics (remote working, unions, etc.), they may not have the best engineers in the world for long..

It's a tense market, and as much as I'd like to work for Tesla were I in a region where they have some jobs, I'd have serious concerns working in an organisation that issues this type of statements: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61666339

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by alex87f

With Musk's policy in regards to some workplace topics (remote working, unions, etc.), they may not have the best engineers in the world for long..

It's a tense market, and as much as I'd like to work for Tesla were I in a region where they have some jobs, I'd have serious concerns working in an organisation that issues this type of statements: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61666339

I don’t think he is wrong. Maybe some people will find their productivity increases staying at home and working remotely, saving time and money living in cheaper areas and not having to commute or get fancied up, so they can work instead, but it can also mean people are more distracted and slack off, which is why Musk forced people to return and cancelled remote working jobs. Also, there is a reason Apple built their circular spaceship to enhance interaction and collaboration and inspire great design. Same with McLaren and other companies with amazing buildings that inspire and are built around collaboration. As Steve Jobs said, “A-types want to work with A people,” so creating an environment that weeds out the slackers or weeds out people who put in less than 110% might be best for the team. Apple has pushed too for a return to work. We will have to see what strategy prevails.

As the article pointed out, Musk works a lot and is a hands on manager, so he expects the same. They also continue to be at the top of lists for desirable places to work, receiving 3 million applications at a 0.5% take rate, and we aren’t talking Walmart positions here.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-3-mi...tions-in-2021/

https://blog.kickresume.com/how-to-get-a-job-at-tesla/

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don’t think he is wrong.....

I agree with much of what you said, and I agree Musk and Apple are not wrong. There are a lot of jobs that can be done remotely, but the type of positions that require collaboration to innovate are not them.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They also continue to be at the top of lists for desirable places to work, receiving 3 million applications at a 0.5% take rate, and we aren’t talking Walmart positions here.

I think some, but not all, of this is resume building though. They want to work at Tesla or Apple or some other place so they can have it on their resume for their next job. In other words its a desirable place to work not because its the ultimate place to work, but it helps you get the next job when you've tired of the corporate culture there.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don’t think he is wrong. Maybe some people will find their productivity increases staying at home and working remotely, saving time and money living in cheaper areas and not having to commute or get fancied up, so they can work instead, but it can also mean people are more distracted and slack off, which is why Musk forced people to return and cancelled remote working jobs. Also, there is a reason Apple built their circular spaceship to enhance interaction and collaboration and inspire great design. Same with McLaren and other companies with amazing buildings that inspire and are built around collaboration. As Steve Jobs said, “A-types want to work with A people,” so creating an environment that weeds out the slackers or weeds out people who put in less than 110% might be best for the team. Apple has pushed too for a return to work. We will have to see what strategy prevails.

As the article pointed out, Musk works a lot and is a hands on manager, so he expects the same. They also continue to be at the top of lists for desirable places to work, receiving 3 million applications at a 0.5% take rate, and we aren’t talking Walmart positions here.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-3-mi...tions-in-2021/

https://blog.kickresume.com/how-to-get-a-job-at-tesla/

If I may, here's an alternative perspective. Musk is a natural autocrat and authoritarian. He is, by nature, a micro-manager. In some instances that may pay off. It may also burnout and alienate talent.

The remote work question is still open just a crack. Forbes printed a piece suggesting some still believe that productivity may have slid among absentee employees.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/glebtsi...h=71125663286a

Many employees think they are more productive at home while many of their bosses (mostly older traditional managerial types) are fearful of them slacking off. No big surprise there.

But empirical studies contradict that.

The Forbes piece goes on to say.

Already before COVID, we had peer-reviewed research demonstrating that remote work improved productivity. A NASDAQ-listed company randomly assigned call center employees to work from home or the office for 9 months. Work from home resulted in a 13% performance increase, due to a combination of fewer sick days, and a quieter and more convenient work environment. Those working from home had improved work satisfaction and a 50% lower attrition rate. A more recent study with random assignment of programmers, marketing, and finance staff found that hybrid work, similarly to remote work, reduces attrition by 35% and resulted in 8% more code written.

The Forbes piece cites a dozen or more academic (Harvard, Stanford, and the Sloan School at MIT) and business generated studies that support this conclusion.

Authoritarians are naturally suspicions. Older generations of managers were raised and socialized into an authoritarian view of the workplace. Musk is not stupid, I suspect he knows, or has been made aware of the research, but his natural suspicion keeps him locked in his mindset.

He is not alone:

This extensive evidence is widely available to anyone who Googles remote work productivity and looks at all the results on the first page. Leaders are taught to make data-driven decisions.

So why do so many leaders continue to ignore the data and stubbornly deny the facts? The key lies in how leaders evaluate performance: based on what they can see.

As the Harvard Business Review points out, leaders are trained to evaluate employees based on “facetime.” Those who come early and leave late are perceived and assessed as more productive.

The problem with conflating facetime with productivity, is it seems to be wrong.