02-22-2023, 09:18 AM | #141 | |
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I'm also a sports car enthusiast that has the exact opposite of a sports car on order (Cadillac LYRIQ). If Tesla built something similar from a design prospective, I would consider it. My LYRIQ build...
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02-22-2023, 10:04 AM | #142 | |
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02-22-2023, 10:07 AM | #143 |
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I don't care either way. I have driven a few, I don't think they are bad cars and they drive fine. The UI I find a bit annoying in some everyday situations. The company and the guy behind it, I don't really care for. I am sure if I found out more info on the CEO's of other car companies and their dealings, I wouldn't care for a few of them either
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02-22-2023, 11:48 AM | #144 | |
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I have nothing against Tesla as an entity. They had a number of QC issues early on and a majority of the few people I know who own them have had service issues that turned painful. I wouldn't buy one - probably ever. Why? Elon Musk. I don't hate the car, but as a corporate figure head, he is more toxic than the dust from a Kryptonite/Plutonium alloy. I suspect that NASA pinning their Artemis landing on SpaceX will end in tears. But, they appear to have a group of talented engineers. Perhaps if Musk will keep completely out of the way, they'll pull it off. There's not much point in my shopping eVs at this point. By the time I would be in the market, that market will look nothing like it does now. I look, but that's it. And just so you know it's me, I'll go pedantic for you. The proper term for something NOT mattering is "I could NOT care less." LOL
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02-22-2023, 11:49 AM | #145 | |
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02-22-2023, 12:26 PM | #146 | |
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Some have argued that Autopilot is engaged in highway driving, so numbers will be higher. Some argue that premium car owners are safer drivers. Maybe, but do you think it is likely that these statistics are the opposite, and even if they could be, the conclusion would be conjecture at best. We just don’t have the statistics besides the hard numbers. As it is, Autopilot appears to be safer when engaged than when not. The only way it could be less safe is if the safety of the average vehicle is soooooo much better on a highway, but considering the average safety of a vehicle and the average miles traveled on highways versus roads, that seems like an impossibility. Same with the fire statistics. Those seem like hard numbers to manipulate in such a way that the situation is the reverse. Someone would have to believe that Tesla is just lying, but this data is probably tracked by government data. Where are the fact checkers if that is the case? Again, if “we just don’t know” is your conclusion then why is it that people can continue to make claims that Teslas are a greater fire hazard, as if they are spontaneously catching on fire often? The only thing we can conclusively say is that battery fires are harder to put out, but this is not what people are claiming when they say Teslas and EVs are a significant fire risk compared to ICEs. This is a baseless claim, and at least this data set suggests the opposite. What sources are other people using? https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
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02-22-2023, 01:04 PM | #147 | |
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I suggest that this discussion illustrates the point well. Based on observed behavior, some people, perhaps even you, seem to have bought Tesla's specious safety claims. That appears to have encouraged some of those humans to do REALLY stupid things behind the wheel. I never said human drivers are better than AP/FSD or that AP/FSD is worse than humans. I said, and say, that the data don't support the claims some make for it. And that, making those claim as fact has really pernicious consequences. Edit: as to the vehicle fire issue - that is a different conflagration. All I can say for sure is that my son, who commands ARFF operations at a midsized airport, seems leery of LI battery fires because they are difficult to put out.
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02-22-2023, 02:02 PM | #148 | |
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02-22-2023, 09:16 PM | #149 | |||||
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Wall of text
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Looking at Tesla's fine print, they state that the data they provided is conservative: Quote:
This is in contrast to the national data, which is likely an underreporting: Quote:
Unless Tesla outright lied about the data, the data suggests that a Tesla with its normal driver safety aids is safer than the national average (some of which also include these similar aids from other manufactures, so that only betters Tesla's position relative to cars without driver aids). Even if highway driving is twice as safe as city driving like the NYT article stated, there is no way to tease out highway miles from the national average and not have Autopilot still being magnitudes safer. It very well could be 10x safer. We don't know. If anyone is suggesting Autopilot is more dangerous or that fires are happening more often than the national averages then I would love to see their data sets, so we can have a real debate. Yes, BEV fires consume more water and are more difficult to put out, but the incidence of fires is blown up in the media. Lastly, you say: Quote:
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02-22-2023, 10:00 PM | #150 |
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it's official. my attention span is shorter than any of these posts.
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02-22-2023, 10:25 PM | #151 | |
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mine ended when i posted the gif
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02-23-2023, 12:56 AM | #152 | |
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I don't hate Elon Musk either. He's just a quite flawed human like many others. He has a modicum of talent, decent business sense and a lot of "personality" whatever that means. Oh and a hyperinflated ego and complete lack of ethical fortitude. I do hate deception, hypocrisy, and manipulation. There's a difference between sharing a vision of the future, however much I disagree with it, and outright lying to people and altering technical facts for the purpose of getting money into your bank account.
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02-23-2023, 01:13 AM | #153 | |
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-I would need to look closer at the data to discuss this further and I just don't have the time or energy. I still have a high amount of suspicion though. -He's all about personal freedoms until the "free speech absolutionist" finds somebody saying something he doesn't like. Also a Hellcat does have a limiter, it's called traction control. You can defeat it if you want to wind up wrapped around a tree but that's a bit like falling asleep at the FSD wheel. The difference is you don't have the CEO saying this car will drive itself.
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02-23-2023, 01:40 AM | #154 |
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Without resorting to a wall of text response -
Edit: it appears I was mistaken. Things I did NOT say. An average human driver is demonstrably safer in the highway use case than AP/FSD/LSMFT/AMF. That numbers themselves lie. That you ARE a “cool aide fueled Musk fanboi.” That data ARE statistics. What I DID say or imply. Tesla is dishonest. They have created the misleading impression/narrative that their product can do things it cannot. In doing so they have created a false sense of security among drivers which arguably leads some of those drivers to engage in extremely unreasonable and dangerous behavior. Further, to create this narrative Tesla cherry picked their data in such a way as to misrepresent the level of safety afforded by their “driver assist” features. To use the euphemism “driver assist” in a post hoc attempt to distract from their use of the term “Full Self Driving” is further evidence of their duplicity/dishonesty and evinces a disregard for either the intelligence or the safety of their customers - or both. Statistics are NOT data. I know that. You know that. Statistics are tools to analyze data and make inferences about real world phenomena. The operationalization of one’s conceptual constructs and the measurement processes used in the data collection process have a direct bearing on the quality of the data one collects. These are up to the investigator and can be used honestly or dishonestly. Likewise, the choice of what, if any, data manipulations to make and what statistics methods/tools to employ in analyzing the data are up to the analyst. The responsibility for those choices lie squarely with the investigator. The quotes from Tesla’s study you furnish persuade me that their research design was developed to support specific claims, which they make, that an honest analysis of the data do not support. They choose to make those claims anyway. In doing so they are lying. You see, data don’t lie. Statistics don’t lie. Data analysts, armed with the tools of statistics lie all the time. They should be called out when they do. Now you are making this a much more convoluted discussion than is necessary. To simplify things let’s take several questions. Did Tesla’s analysis of the relative safety of their so called FSD draw a comparison between accident data from vehicles so equipped in a narrowly defined use case with those of vehicles not so equipped in a much broader use case? Would a reasonable and prudent professional data scientist realize that? Could conducting such a comparison lead to biased and misleading results? Would/should a reasonable and prudent professional data scientist realize that? Did Tesla nevertheless make claims suggesting that their product was many times safer than an average human driver? It seems to me the answer to each question is yes. Therefore, Tesla lied. Now lots of makers of lots of products lie. I guess what I find interesting is the insistence on defending them. And you have me pegged on one thing. I loathe Elon Musk. As I said before, i consider him a juvenile, narcissistic, egotistical, petty, overbearing, selfish, bullying, megalomaniac. I altered my list of adjectives. With regard to yourself, I think I said that you were coming across as a cool aide fueled Musk fanboi. Not that you were/are one. In the final analysis, this isn’t about me or about you or about intellectual **** measuring. It’s about honesty and dishonesty. In my considered opinion, Tesla is and has been dishonest. That is it.
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