Tesla Cyber Truck (Most Hideous Truck/Tank Ever)

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Quality of materials is subjective and objective. A modern plastic intake manifold might be lighter and have a lower failure rate than a heavy, cast intake manifold from the past, so does that make plastic more premium than aluminum, or is it only objectively better compared to old manifolds, while being subjectively worse because of the cheap material? If we are talking interior: is alcantara less premium than leather because it is synthetic suede and doesn't last as long as leather, or, because it is more expensive than most leather, is it more premium because of price only? If the windows are a millimeter or two thicker than the industry standard for economy cars, and it objectively reduces road noise then is that a premium material? If the Model 3 uses a wood veneer, which is industry standard in the premium class, compared to an economy car using a vinyl sticker, then does that mean it is premium?

We can do the back and forth about objectivity/subjectivity about materials vs material properties vs function/longevity/perception/etc vs price, but again, the point for me is that Tesla is premium in enough features/materials/performance/experience to justify its price in a rational way without a deception needed from Tesla/Musk, as Dadhawk suggested.

There is cheap, and there is adaquite. That is not the discussion we are having. It's like with alcantara vs leather. That is preference, and nothing else. Now there is cheap vs nicer alcantara, or leather. I think you are getting a bit off base of what I am saying. Dadhawk got it with the above post. I don't consider it any better/worse, more feature filled then any other comparable car of similar age.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

its the ambience, its the environment. Its how the vehicle "feels" in relation to its pricepoint.

I will also agree to some degree about the tech. I dont care about tech. I'd rather NOT have tech in my car...im driving my damn car why do i need facebook or instagram access on my infotainment system?

The Tesla approach i wont outright say is premium vs not premium in terms of tech, simplicity, guages, etc. Its just a means of doing different things.

But what is consistent throughtout the automotive landscape....does sitting in the car feel like your in a econobox or a premium priced vehicle?

Does the ambience give off something cheap or oozes quality? does the switchgear feel solid or flimsy?

Comparing my X1 (a $60,000 vehicle) with my 86 ($34,000) there is a clear difference in ambience and quality.

The BMW clearly feels like more of an upscale vehicle. Switchgear is much better, theres more use of soft plastics. Stuff feels more solidly put together. The hard plastics and materials used feel of higher quality.
In comparison the 86 has (and mines the upgraded trim level)....more cheaper looking materials and more use of hard scratchy plastics throughout. Switchgear is plasticky, but theres enough "good enough" nice soft materials sprinkled throughout that it doesnt feel like a Yaris on the inside. Everything just feels "good enough". Its build quality is good enough, the material quality is good enough to not be bottom f the barrel. The whole ambience of the car does not feel like its in the same league as the BMW. Its almost like if you were to compare 2 boxes. One made out of cardboard and another made out of plywood. No matter how good you build the cardboard box it'll always feel cheaper and hollow compared to the plywood box.

So in my mind if i am to sit in a $60,000 Tesla its gotta feel like something that gives off $60,000 and up like my BMW. Thats where i want to feel my money is worth it. If it doesnt, and it feels more like a better 86, then i dont consider that a premium product. For all i've read about them thats what they basically are, getting charged luxury car prices for something that is at best a near premium LEVEL product (i never actualy been in a tesla, so i cant personally comment on this)

And simplicity isnt neccessarily a luxury. Ikea stuff is all kinds of simple, functional and cheap, and they look and feel it (not bottom barrel cheap but cheap nonetheless)

I agree Tesla is branding its version of premium or luxury in a different way. There are some objective things that are clearly premium or luxurious. For instance, to have a powertrain in the Model S that is smoother, quieter and more powerful than a Bentley twin turbo 6.0L W12 might classify the powertrain as luxurious, or the size of the panoramic glass roof might be industry leading, but clearly the Model S doesn't have massaging seats and powered shades or lounging chairs like a BMW 7 series, yet I also think most would consider a Lexus LC500 a luxury coupe, yet its feature least is fairly light compared to the BMWs as well. Lexus does a lot behind the scenes to make the cars luxurious and special in how they feel without someone being aware of it.

There is a lot of tech in Teslas, which is one of the main reasons people buy these cars and pay premium prices. Some premium and luxury brands have more tech or have a decent technology package, but most people buying a Tesla are paying a premium to drive "the car of the future" in terms of the technology advancement, besides the feel of the powertrain. To open, start, preheat, etc the car with a phone app. To summon the car. The Autopilot. The very superior user interface compared to traditional navigation units. Sentry mode. Dog mode. Over-the-air updates means features get updated regularly. Again, compared to technology packages of many competitors in the premium and luxury car segment, there is more there, while there might be deficiencies in other ways, as mentioned in the first paragraph. Like you said, each has their hand in making their car premium.

I would undoubtedly consider Tesla premium. I tend to think of luxury as opalescence in design, materials, build quality, experience, ride quality, relaxing qualities, where someone is likely to have a chauffeur like in a Rolls-Royce or BMW 7 series or Lexus LS or Mercedes S-Class, so the focus is more on the rear than the driver in features. The Model S is nice and reminds me more of the LC500 than a LS500.

I don't think Tesla is trying to pass off simplicity as premium in its interior designs. They probably wanted to use the Jony Ive mantra of simplicity in design can make something beautiful, relaxing, etc, as was the case with mid-century modern furniture, those Ikea and Scandinavian Design look--an Asian philosophy of simplicity. This tends to be a hallmark of concept cars when looking at their interiors, which tend to be simple and bold; buttons and functions are removed to show design language and architecture. Later, side mirrors, door handles, interior buttons and all those things are incorporated, which often ruins the simplicity of the concept cars. Tesla decided to go for it for many reasons, but part of that was to convey something modern, but not necessarily premium. Adding wood inlays and using certain materials was more about making it premium.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I was not suggesting it was done by deception, any more that Apple has made their product "premium" through brilliant marketing. I said it was their biggest win.

I can tell you that if GM produced the Model 3 and named it the ChEVette, even if it was soup to nuts and feature to feature equivalent, it would not be considered Premium.

Maybe I'm not getting what you are saying here because Apple's products are premium. They don't need to be brilliant at marketing to fake what is a fact. They highlight everything in their ads such as the UI features, culture, experience, premium feel, craftsmanship, performance, engineering, simplicity, ecosystem, etc., sometimes focusing on many things or just one thing.

You say that about GM, yet most people would consider the Corvette a premium sporty car and their Camaro an economy sporty car. Is the Corvette an economy sporty car because it is sold by Chevy? If GM made the Cadillac Lyriq with a Chevy badge as the only difference, then they and people would most certainly consider it premium, but they wouldn't consider Chevy/GM a premium brand because of one car or a few. Why? Because GM sells mostly economy class cars by models and clearly has Buick and Cadillac for premium and luxury cars. VW did exactly what you are saying with the $50k Touareg, which sat on the same platform at the Porsche Cayenne and the Audi Q7, which the latter started at the same $50k, and the Touareg actually was offered with a comprehensive array of engines including a V12 and V10 diesel. The VW CC was also a German made premium car in the economy brand's lineup, which wasn't made in Mexico like the Jetta or Passat. Like the Touareg, it offered premium features at a premium price under an economy brand, stepping toes on its premium/luxury brand's equivalents. Sure, the prices of the VWs started high, but topped out quickly compared to the Audis, yet the whole idea here is that a premium car is a premium car. Relabel a Tesla a VW and people would say this is nice for a VW and consider it a premium car like they did with the Touareg and CC.

[Irace86.2.0]

[PulsarBeeerz]

I had a ride in a friend's model 3 and the first thing I thought to myself was early 2000s Saturn Ion vibes. I liked IKEA when I had an apartment, but I don't want that in a $50k vehicle.. If they had ever sold for the mid 30s as promised, it would be a no brainier aside from the uninspired design inside and out. Now that I've sat inside a Model 3 and a MY21 Civic. Rode in the 3 and drove the Honda. The EV is faster(no shit) but I'm just going to work bro so I don't care. The Honda felt better screwed together, everything was where you'd expect and subjectively felt more... "premium". I think we can all agree that a Model 3 isn't a luxury vehicle. At least not if you have ever owned and rode in one. Its an econobox with a great power train and there is nothing wrong with that. I know for a fact that if I was in the market for a fast, fun, four door, I would look right past a dual motor Model 3 on my way to local Dodge Charger dealership.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Maybe I'm not getting what you are saying here because Apple's products are premium. .

Grammatical error on my part, typing too fast and not proofreading. Corrected original post.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You say that about GM, yet most people would consider the Corvette a premium sporty car and their Camaro an economy sporty car. ...

Either you missed my point, or are ignoring it, or was confused by my corrected misstatement. I stand by what I said. You can disagree if you wish.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Grammatical error on my part, typing too fast and not proofreading. Corrected original post.

I'm still not getting the statement. It sounds like you are saying Tesla has brilliantly convinced many people in the industry and their buyers that their vehicles are premium when they are not, just like Apple has convinced the industry and buyers that their products are premium. I'm sure you are familiar with Occam's razor. Is it more likely these two companies have been extremely successful with convincing everyone in a falsity, especially Tesla who doesn't directly advertise, or perhaps it's the case that they are what they are and people see the value in the products?

Ford sells the Fiesta and the Ford GT. Samsung sells burner flip phones and foldable flagship phones. Apple, like BMW, sticks with premium phones, not having the most expensive phones or very cheaply made phones. Their phones are neither the most premium or not premium. They perform well compared to other flagship phones and have excellent build materials and quality inside a robust ecosystem that is very appealing and adds value to the customers who choose to buy their products. Similarly, Tesla vehicles all have premium+ class performance, top range for BEVs, top of the line tech, premium glass, premium interior, some of the best safety and crash test ratings, some of the best interior and cargo space for its dimensions, etc. The value is there, and their products are consistently premium in multiple categories, which is drawing customers to their products.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Either you missed my point, or are ignoring it, or was confused by my corrected misstatement. I stand by what I said. You can disagree if you wish.

You didn't really make a point. You made a statement without explanation or rationale for that statement. There is no "because" with rationale or evidence; there was only "I can tell you..." Yeah, you can tell me anything, but that doesn't make it so. If you said, "The Model 3 is like a Nike t-shirt," then that too is a statement where I must infer what you mean. Maybe you would be implying that the Nike t-shirt is no different than a Target t-shirt with a Nike logo, and the Model 3 is an economy car with a premium badge, and in which case, now I'm arguing with what I presume to be what you are inferring (having a debate with myself), saying, "Well, the Nike t-shirt is thicker with dry wick material that is more tailored and less boxy with coloring that doesn't fade as much and a collar that won't ripple after a few washes, and it is preshrunk to fit the first time I try it on." By you saying, "I can tell you..." without rationale, you seem to be suggesting you are more familiar with what the rest of the world is thinking more than me, so I should trust your opinion on this statement without explanation.

You may be saying that if we remove the badge and skin from the Tesla, and put the car in GM skin like pulling the Nike logo off the t-shirt, people wouldn't think the car is premium like they wouldn't think the t-shirt is premium. I disagree. People can tell a premium shirt from a cheap shirt. I'm not saying there isn't value in the logo for Nike or for Tesla or for Ford. The premium Nike shirt will also be more expensive because it has any logo, but especially the Nike logo. In fact, the Ford badge may have hurt the GT's price or appeal because it wasn't a prancing horse or bull. Badges make a difference, but no one thinks the Ford GT is not a hypercar because it has an economy brand badge. Similarly, no one is thinking the Model 3 is a premium car only because it has a Tesla badge. If a manufacture could effectively do that and charge premium prices, all Toyota vehicles would have Lexus badges. Tesla isn't unique, nor does it have the ability of mass hypnosis. Because you haven't provided a reason, only a "trust me bro", I don't really know why you think they are unique.

[soundman98]

i guess the question is this. if the tesla model 3 is considered 'premium', and the GM corvette is considered 'premium', why isn't GM also included in that listing of 'premium' brands?

does anyone remember all the articles of the past when the model 3 first came out, of tesla moving downmarket? at what point can tesla no longer be considered 'premium'? or is the model 3 a default 'premium' because tesla originally sold the high end model s first?

this really reminds me of when taylor swift migrated from country to pop... just because something was originally defined as one thing doesn't mean it's always that definition for the rest of time...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i guess the question is this. if the tesla model 3 is considered 'premium', and the GM corvette is considered 'premium', why isn't GM also included in that listing of 'premium' brands?

does anyone remember all the articles of the past when the model 3 first came out, of tesla moving downmarket? at what point can tesla no longer be considered 'premium'? or is the model 3 a default 'premium' because tesla originally sold the high end model s first?

this really reminds me of when taylor swift migrated from country to pop... just because something was originally defined as one thing doesn't mean it's always that definition for the rest of time...

Because that is a single car, just the same as why Ford is not considered an exotic or hypercar manufacture with the likes of Ferrari or Bugatti just because it made the Ford GT. Typically, whatever the brand makes the most of is what they are, so GM is an economy brand because most models are in that class with the Corvette being an exception. This can become more complicated when brands start making many premium class or luxury cars such as Hyundai did before it split into its economy brand, Hyundai, and luxury brand, Genesis, instead of just having a premium/luxury line.

Tesla mentioned making an economy model that was smaller, cheaper and more bare bones like the size of a Fiesta/Golf, subcompact hatch sized, and they might, and if they did then like Hyundai, it could be the start of more models that eventually fracture the company into a premium and economy brand. At this time, everything is premium+, so that is why they consider the car company a premium brand.

[soundman98]

i dunno, i've always considered the model 3 a more standard, non-premium vehicle. it started with the promised price point at $30k.

i mean, even the toyota bz4x is $50k, and no one would think to try calling that premium.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

i dunno, i've always considered the model 3 a more standard, non-premium vehicle. it started with the promised price point at $30k.

i mean, even the toyota bz4x is $50k, and no one would think to try calling that premium.

I don’t know. I haven’t been in the car. Have you? Maybe it will be. It is a unique model.

Some companies are building EV brands like Polestar. Some are building lines like Hyandai’s IONIQ like the Hyundai Genesis line that eventually fractured into a luxury brand. This was done to differentiate and not muddy the brand with a confusing lineup of non-cohesive cars and before it was clear that EVs will be the future. Hyandai is trying to move up market with the EVs and rebranding themselves in the process with unique designs. There is probably going to continue to be a lot of shuffling.

The Toyota, Hyundai and BMW i4 are all built on ICE platforms, as can be seen in Munro’s videos and in the commentary in the video I posted above comparing the Tesla to the BMW. The BMW is much heavier, with less space and with less storage all at a higher price and not necessarily better performance. It is the problem of playing catchup, using ICE architecture to build an EV and not having a gigafactory. The Toyota might be priced on par with the non-Tesla cost of building an EV and may not be premium, or maybe they added more tech and premium features and build quality to make it competitive with the Tesla because that is the chief competitor for EVs, regardless of class.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I'm still not getting the statement. It sounds like you are saying Tesla has brilliantly convinced many people in the industry and their buyers that their vehicles are premium when they are not, just like Apple has convinced the industry and buyers that their products are premium. ...

See you did get it.