Tesla Cyber Truck (Most Hideous Truck/Tank Ever)

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Already explained and we're not going to convince each other otherwise, so moving on.

I will say what you describe as the future isn't an automobile. It's just transportation. The equivalent of riding in a moving living room. No thanks.

A taxi isn't an automobile? A Rolls-Royce isn't an automobile, but a Bentley is? A plane isn't a plane...it is just transportation. Being a driver in a car makes it an automobile, but being a passenger in a car changes the car to a transportation vehicle? You have funny definitions.

Regardless, maybe not in your or my lifetime, but the future is most definitely a fully automated automobile, emphasizing the auto in AUTOmobile. A floating living room that allows people to focus on work or entertainment like on a plane or Uber taxi while the car does the driving is definitely going to be dominant, if not mandated.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I feel like I've had this debate before, specifically with the Supra and 86. People were saying the Supra 2.0 wasn't premium, nor was there much difference in features, so I made a list:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...3&postcount=36

I've done driving experiences in Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Aston Martins, Porsches, and been in every luxury brand. Defining what is premium is going to be different for everyone, but the reason premium and luxury brands are priced the way they are isn't just because a Bentley has an umbrella in the door when a Honda minivan has a vacuum in the rear panel. What a video on the obsession with Lexus engineers with the smallest things like how the windows close to make a perfect shut with the perfect sound, and you will see what CAN go into making a premium or luxury car. In general, the things that build value or which are used to set the price go into all the things that make it what it is. Like comparing a Cayman with the 911, people would be remissed to think the differences are just in the look of the interiors or the location of the powertrain. The amount of tech crammed into the 911 compared to the Cayman that is working behind the scenes is a similar difference between a Civic, the Model 3 or BMW 3 series and the Model S or BMW 7 series. There is a lot under the skin that people don't see as well. Watch a video of Monro tearing down a Tesla, and you see a lot more.

I can say that my wife's Q5 is far and above more premium than any VW Atlas or Honda CRV. It is immediately clear it is in a different class, but spend more time with it, and I find new easter eggs all the time. Whether or not the features matter to all buyers isn't really the point. It is the sum of all the little things that make these vehicles premium. For Tesla, the drivetrain and performance, the UI, the driving experience, the feature list, the building materials, etc all add to make it a premium vehicle over a Civic. On the surface, a Camry might not be much different than a Model 3 or ten year old Lambo interior in terms of superficial quality, but that is because you have to dig a little deeper. If anything, in a similar vein to what Dadhawk said, but in the reverse position, economy brands have gotten really good at increasing the look and feel of their interiors from afar and to give a sense of premium quality, but often it is only skin deep.

I don't consider new tech and features premium, because eventually the "new" wears off and it won't be, to me these "features" are what are only skin deep. I am talking about the materials, and the way things fit, the quality. None of that comes across as premium. Surprisingly the older 19' my parents have didn't have the dash rattle and door panel creak as the 21' I drove in Orlando last November.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

A taxi isn't an automobile? A Rolls-Royce isn't an automobile, but a Bentley is?

These are all automobiles, as someone is driving them. I don't ride in the back so there is that. I think in my entire life I've ridden in a taxi 3 times.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Regardless, maybe not in your or my lifetime, but the future is most definitely a fully automated automobile, emphasizing the auto in AUTOmobile.

Oh I don't doubt it will come about. I'm sort of glad I'll likely miss it.

By the way, the etomology of the word automobile means "self moving" as in powered, not "self driving". Self driving would by autoincessus which somehow sounds dirty.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I don't consider new tech and features premium, because eventually the "new" wears off and it won't be, to me these "features" are what are only skin deep. I am talking about the materials, and the way things fit, the quality. None of that comes across as premium. Surprisingly the older 19' my parents have didn't have the dash rattle and door panel creak as the 21' I drove in Orlando last November.

Premium cars have better build quality, fancier hardware, more sound deadening, thicker glass for noise reduction, better hardware for construction, etc. Components are thicker and stronger. There is typically more complexity, so the Q5 has automatic wipers that sense rain and go slower or faster based on the intensity. It has a soft turn signal and a hard turn signal, the former not clicking into a permanent position, but just does three flashes for a lane change. Premium cars might have cruise control that will lane keep or slow behind a car and then speed back up on its own. They might have power seats, but they are also ten way adjustable and memory seats for multiple drivers. There are heated seats, but heated rear seats with three or four levels verses two. The Q5 has a sensor if the coolant is low and a feature for checking the oil level from the car menu. I can keep going on, but the summation of all these small features and enhancements to normal function is what makes most car premium besides improvements in the engine size, performance, components, power-auto-adjusting sway bars, premium transmissions like a 9 speed auto versus a CVT, etc. I could go on and on with the list of enhancements. It is actually kind of crazy the differences.

Watch the Monro video tearing down the Teslas, if you haven't. A Model 3 has a lot of premium features and higher build quality. Compare it to the i3 or 3 series, and it is far closer to that than a Honda. Start getting into a Model S with air suspension and other premium features, and it is clearer. It may not have the most in its class, but it is far from an economy class sedan of its size.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Premium cars have better build quality, fancier hardware, more sound deadening, thicker glass for noise reduction, better hardware for construction, etc. Components are thicker and stronger. There is typically more complexity, so the Q5 has automatic wipers that sense rain and go slower or faster based on the intensity. It has a soft turn signal and a hard turn signal, the former not clicking into a permanent position, but just does three flashes for a lane change. Premium cars might have cruise control that will lane keep or slow behind a car and then speed back up on its own. They might have power seats, but they are also ten way adjustable and memory seats for multiple drivers. There are heated seats, but heated rear seats with three or four levels verses two. The Q5 has a sensor if the coolant is low and a feature for checking the oil level from the car menu. I can keep going on, but the summation of all these small features and enhancements to normal function is what makes most car premium besides improvements in the engine size, performance, components, power-auto-adjusting sway bars, premium transmissions like a 9 speed auto versus a CVT, etc. I could go on and on with the list of enhancements. It is actually kind of crazy the differences.

Watch the Monro video tearing down the Teslas, if you haven't. A Model 3 has a lot of premium features and higher build quality. Compare it to the i3 or 3 series, and it is far closer to that than a Honda. Start getting into a Model S with air suspension and other premium features, and it is clearer. It may not have the most in its class, but it is far from an economy class sedan of its size.

You can cite all the resources you want about why a model 3 is premium, I can go grab my parents model 3 and take it for a drive at any time and tell you from my perspective. It isn't.

Like I said already, I don't really consider features as premium. Eventually it trickles down to most cars. Heated seats, backup camera's, lane keep assist, adaptive cruise. Those may have been premium in their day, but they are pretty standard anymore. A lot of those are even required now for new cars. I don't buy into features.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

These are all automobiles, as someone is driving them. I don't ride in the back so there is that. I think in my entire life I've ridden in a taxi 3 times.

Oh I don't doubt it will come about. I'm sort of glad I'll likely miss it.

By the way, the etomology of the word automobile means "self moving" as in powered, not "self driving". Self driving would by autoincessus which somehow sounds dirty.

So a Model 3 is an automobile that turns into an autoincessus when it goes into autopilot mode? Got it. Just trying to understand these definitions.

[bcj]

Premium

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

You can cite all the resources you want about why a model 3 is premium, I can go grab my parents model 3 and take it for a drive at any time and tell you from my perspective. It isn't.

Like I said already, I don't really consider features as premium. Eventually it trickles down to most cars. Heated seats, backup camera's, lane keep assist, adaptive cruise. Those may have been premium in their day, but they are pretty standard anymore. A lot of those are even required now for new cars. I don't buy into features.

Yeah, you have a subjective opinion. I get that everyone has their subjective opinion, but I was trying to speak to objective truths that everyone could agree on. According to you, features don't matter because it is mostly about build quality, which, in your subjective opinion, is lacking, but isn't build quality also just a feature that eventually trickles down to most cars? The build quality of premium and luxury cars in the past may have been premium in their day, but they are pretty standard now. A lot of the structural and safety are even required now for new cars. Don't we have build quality inflation on top of feature inflation? A Cadillac from the 60's is going to feel pretty poor in build quality compared to many economy cars of today, as is also the case with performance, handling, features, etc. It is all relative to the times.

Dadhawk made a statement about Tesla:

That's the biggest win for Tesla, convincing buyers that all their models are "premium" or "luxury" cars while stripping them down to basically bare interiors on the inside, and still getting to charge a premium price.

According to him, missing gauges and buttons mean its interior is not premium, so the car isn't premium. According to him, Tesla has managed to pull the wool over the buyers' eyes (but really they have apparently convinced the entire world, car industry, media and motor journalists, besides just the buyers) that their cars are premium/luxury cars to be compared to other premium/luxury brands. This is quite the feat to do, in his subjective opinion.

Subjectively, I don't believe the buyers are so gullible to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a premium car that is actually an economy car or when they could have bought a Chevy Bolt that has an economy price or bought a BMW i3 that is actually premium, nor do I believe they were tricked into buying a Tesla over a clearly much more premium BMW, Audi, Lexus ICE vehicle.

Wish there was some objective truths that would settle this point that we could all agree on, but clearly, there are only subjective opinions between all of us that will never be reconciled.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Yeah, you have a subjective opinion. I get that everyone has their subjective opinion, but I was trying to speak to objective truths that everyone could agree on. According to you, features don't matter because it is mostly about build quality, which, in your subjective opinion, is lacking, but isn't build quality also just a feature that eventually trickles down to most cars? The build quality of premium and luxury cars in the past may have been premium in their day, but they are pretty standard now. A lot of the structural and safety are even required now for new cars. Don't we have build quality inflation on top of feature inflation? A Cadillac from the 60's is going to feel pretty poor in build quality compared to many economy cars of today, as is also the case with performance, handling, features, etc. It is all relative to the times.

Dadhawk made a statement about Tesla:



According to him, missing gauges and buttons mean its interior is not premium, so the car isn't premium. According to him, Tesla has managed to pull the wool over the buyers' eyes (but really they have apparently convinced the entire world, car industry, media and motor journalists, besides just the buyers) that their cars are premium/luxury cars to be compared to other premium/luxury brands. This is quite the feat to do, in his subjective opinion.

Subjectively, I don't believe the buyers are so gullible to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a premium car that is actually an economy car or when they could have bought a Chevy Bolt that has an economy price or bought a BMW i3 that is actually premium, nor do I believe they were tricked into buying a Tesla over a clearly much more premium BMW, Audi, Lexus ICE vehicle.

Wish there was some objective truths that would settle this point that we could all agree on, but clearly, there are only subjective opinions between all of us that will never be reconciled.

I guess I should qualify my subjective opinion, which I am poor at, and say when compared to cars of similar age. Let's say +/-3 years. I am not going from a 21' Model 3 to a 16' Camry or a 19' Model 3 to a 20' Accord and considering any one more premium then the other. Though I do prefer cars with actual turn and wiper stalks.

To be clear not just build quality that I am talking about, but also the quality of chosen materials.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I'd say my parent's model 3 is at least as nice as my grandparents 09' Civic

I thought I posted this last night but apparently I never hit the Post button.

I was (hopefully obviously) using hyperbole to make a point. Then again if I compare the cabin of a '77 Honda Civic to a Model 3, there are amazing similarities. I do like the curved dash of the Honda better, that's a luxurious premium addition. (where's my damn sarcasm font)

1977 Honda Civic


Tesla Model 3

[Sasquachulator]

its the ambience, its the environment. Its how the vehicle "feels" in relation to its pricepoint.

I will also agree to some degree about the tech. I dont care about tech. I'd rather NOT have tech in my car...im driving my damn car why do i need facebook or instagram access on my infotainment system?

The Tesla approach i wont outright say is premium vs not premium in terms of tech, simplicity, guages, etc. Its just a means of doing different things.

But what is consistent throughtout the automotive landscape....does sitting in the car feel like your in a econobox or a premium priced vehicle?

Does the ambience give off something cheap or oozes quality? does the switchgear feel solid or flimsy?

Comparing my X1 (a $60,000 vehicle) with my 86 ($34,000) there is a clear difference in ambience and quality.

The BMW clearly feels like more of an upscale vehicle. Switchgear is much better, theres more use of soft plastics. Stuff feels more solidly put together. The hard plastics and materials used feel of higher quality.
In comparison the 86 has (and mines the upgraded trim level)....more cheaper looking materials and more use of hard scratchy plastics throughout. Switchgear is plasticky, but theres enough "good enough" nice soft materials sprinkled throughout that it doesnt feel like a Yaris on the inside. Everything just feels "good enough". Its build quality is good enough, the material quality is good enough to not be bottom f the barrel. The whole ambience of the car does not feel like its in the same league as the BMW. Its almost like if you were to compare 2 boxes. One made out of cardboard and another made out of plywood. No matter how good you build the cardboard box it'll always feel cheaper and hollow compared to the plywood box.

So in my mind if i am to sit in a $60,000 Tesla its gotta feel like something that gives off $60,000 and up like my BMW. Thats where i want to feel my money is worth it. If it doesnt, and it feels more like a better 86, then i dont consider that a premium product. For all i've read about them thats what they basically are, getting charged luxury car prices for something that is at best a near premium LEVEL product (i never actualy been in a tesla, so i cant personally comment on this)

And simplicity isnt neccessarily a luxury. Ikea stuff is all kinds of simple, functional and cheap, and they look and feel it (not bottom barrel cheap but cheap nonetheless)

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I guess I should quantify my subjective opinion, which I am poor at, and say when compared to cars of similar age. Let's say +/-3 years. I am not going from a 21' Model 3 to a 16' Camry or a 19' Model 3 to a 20' Accord and considering any one more premium then the other. Though I do prefer cars with actual turn and wiper stalks.

To be clear not just build quality that I am talking about, but also the quality of chosen materials.

Quality of materials is subjective and objective. A modern plastic intake manifold might be lighter and have a lower failure rate than a heavy, cast intake manifold from the past, so does that make plastic more premium than aluminum, or is it only objectively better compared to old manifolds, while being subjectively worse because of the cheap material? If we are talking interior: is alcantara less premium than leather because it is synthetic suede and doesn't last as long as leather, or, because it is more expensive than most leather, is it more premium because of price only? If the windows are a millimeter or two thicker than the industry standard for economy cars, and it objectively reduces road noise then is that a premium material? If the Model 3 uses a wood veneer, which is industry standard in the premium class, compared to an economy car using a vinyl sticker, then does that mean it is premium?

We can do the back and forth about objectivity/subjectivity about materials vs material properties vs function/longevity/perception/etc vs price, but again, the point for me is that Tesla is premium in enough features/materials/performance/experience to justify its price in a rational way without a deception needed from Tesla/Musk, as Dadhawk suggested.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

...We can do the back and forth about objectivity/subjectivity about materials vs material properties vs function/longevity/perception/etc vs price, but again, the point for me is that Tesla is premium in enough features/materials/performance/experience to justify its price in a rational way without a deception needed from Tesla/Musk, as Dadhawk suggested.

I was not suggesting it was done by deception, more like Apple has made their product "premium" through brilliant marketing. I said it was their biggest win.

I can tell you that if GM produced the Model 3 and named it the ChEVette, even if it was soup to nuts and feature to feature equivalent, it would not be considered Premium.

[MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I was not suggesting it was done by deception, any more that Apple has made their product "premium" through brilliant marketing. I said it was their biggest win.

I can tell you that if GM produced the Model 3 and named it the ChEVette, even if it was soup to nuts and feature to feature equivalent, it would not be considered Premium.

great point but this thread makes it really obvious who loves to eat from the marketing trough