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01-06-2023, 12:06 PM | #29 | |
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I’ve had perfect vision my whole life, but that’s kinda like me saying “why would you put glass in front of your eye balls, or god forbid contacts that actually touch your eye ball, that could cause some problems”. When in reality some people need it. |
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01-06-2023, 01:34 PM | #30 | |
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I appreciate ZDan's thought process. OEM suspension components are almost always going to be tough as nails, and I don't change them out unless I have to. That's why I'm still on OEM toe links even with my aftermarket LCAs. However, I don't quite agree with his persistence that anything other than OEM is simply a bad decision from a durability standpoint. Properly designed and tested aftermarket parts don't just explode left and right when you hit a pothole, and will last just fine as long as they are installed correctly, and properly maintained. I won't argue that OEM LCAs will probably handle more ultimate abuse before failing as compared to, say, my aluminum Verus LCAs, but if you're at that point, you've got a lot of other stuff to worry about, and even the OEM ones will likely need replacing. Just a few weeks ago I didn't see a GIANT metal bracket sitting on the road while I was changing lanes. It smashed into the pleading edge of my floor pan, but luckily the fiberglass aero tray cushioned the impact, before getting absolutely nailed by my left rear LCA, which sent it skittering across the road. The impact was extremely violent and I actually pulled over on the highway (which itself is not something you do unnecessarily if you don't want to die) because I was genuinely worried I'd find all manner of fluids dripping or half of a bumper missing or something. Nothing. It was only when I got home and jacked the car up that I noticed a giant gouge in the LCA where the impact had occurred... but it's otherwise fine! I don't want people to read ZDan's comments and think that aftermarket parts will collapse if you so much as look at them funny. I've hit some potholes in my car that felt like they should have separated the entire rear subframe. TL;DR Yes, there are plenty of poorly-designed aftermarket parts I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot-pole, and yes, even good aftermarket parts can suffer from manufacturing defects, installation error, and might even ultimately be slightly less durable than OEM parts, but if you do your research, install them properly, and maintain them correctly, you really shouldn't be needing to worry about them exploding any more than any other part on the car. Having said all that, I'd definitely be curious to know what caused the failure in OP's situation.
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01-06-2023, 01:59 PM | #31 |
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FWIW my right rear camber is about 0.2 deg > left rear. Front is more asymmetric, right is 0.5 deg > left at max camber plate adjustment. At CCW tracks I just run max negative or about -3.2 FL and -3.7 FR (rear of course not adjustable). At CW tracks I will sometimes even out the front, sometimes don’t, lap timer can’t really tell the difference…
Street car can stand a lot of camber asymmetry, even something like -1* LR with -2 RR for a street car would not be a problem. Track car, again, I could scarcely tell the difference between front being even vs. one side having 0.5* more. It is important to be in the right ballpark, but +/- a couple/few tenths from there is not a big deal. I do think aftermarket arms and links are overprescribed in most cases. Theory as to what caused failure in this case: fatigue in the aluminum housing, which has a quite narrow cross-section. Also the design is not failsafe like oem so when it failed toe control went completely bye bye. Last edited by ZDan; 01-06-2023 at 04:14 PM. |
01-06-2023, 05:57 PM | #32 |
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At one point I was very OCD about tire pressures (adjusting within 0.5 psi increments) and also about alignment (must match L/R). However, as time went on, I found that they have little impact on lap times as variations in your driving is likely to make a bigger difference. I'm more along the lines of @ZDan now where camber that is less than a few tenths of a degree difference is acceptable in my books.
OE parts are more likely to be manufactured to a higher quality with more considerations made during the design phase. Sure, you can find high quality aftermarket parts but I would consider it be to rare. Even if engineered and manufactured to a high standard, aftermarket parts manufacturers likely have less control over the quality of their suppliers as well. |
01-06-2023, 06:58 PM | #33 | |
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01-06-2023, 08:20 PM | #34 | ||
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01-06-2023, 09:07 PM | #35 | |
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Sure, but on the other hand I often see you say they are over prescribed which could discourage someone who actually do "need" aftermarket control arms. Like I mentioned your car came with excellent tolerances. Subaru was under no obligation to build your as well as they did, but they did. A good chunk (if not most of us) were not as lucky. And when I say aftermarket control arms I am typically talking about the SPC/new whiteline style. I am not that big a fan of aluminum suspension parts for the reason that you mentioned, especially with their fully exposed heim joints. These are race parts for professional teams. The fact that OP's toe arms lasted 6 years is just a testament to the quality of Verus and FK parts. |
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01-06-2023, 10:11 PM | #36 | |||
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But anyway in my case I dropped the car 1.5” and rear camber is within 0.2*. Honestly I wouldn’t be worried if I was at -2.5/-3.0 but I’ll admit more than that might give me pause for competitive track work where tenths are important… Quote:
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01-06-2023, 10:56 PM | #37 |
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I do agree that all arms with exposed heim joints should be inspected regularly. I would not expect a heim to last through 6 years of regular street driving, especially with that amount of corrosion..
That said, I'd be curious if the type of failure the op experienced would have been found with a regular inspection.
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01-07-2023, 11:20 AM | #38 |
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Autocross is definitely not one of those applications where a degree difference can be ignored :P
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01-08-2023, 08:25 AM | #39 |
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I wouldn’t have any qualms about going out on the track with -2/-3 split rear camber. For sure I would be looking for any handling balance differences in left- vs. right-handers, and if I felt like it was an issue I’d do something about it for sure. I’d probably start with loosening rear subframe mounts and tryna shift it, see how much that evens things out.
Last edited by ZDan; 01-08-2023 at 09:02 AM. |
01-08-2023, 09:13 AM | #40 | |
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With that in mind, I found -3 to -4 front and -1.8 to -2.2 rear to be the sweet spots with minimal toe used and not too low hot pressures. Also, I’m one of those with uneven rear camber from stock, almost evened out shifting subframe though. |
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01-08-2023, 11:18 AM | #41 | ||
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Last edited by ZDan; 01-08-2023 at 01:15 PM. |
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01-08-2023, 04:20 PM | #42 | |
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I had a front strut completely fail at 35mph on my way home from a time attack event. It was a blessing that it didn't fail on me at the track since I would reach 140mph before standing on the brakes for turn 1. You can see from where it failed that there shiny metal (new) and rusty metal (old) so it was likely cracked for some time. Link to image: https://www.instagram.com/p/CID5OzqnznU/ |
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