Random Thoughts - Part III The Search for Spark (No Politics)

[spcmafia]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

You can start here. It's such a broad subject that it is hard to tackle in one go. It starts with learning what it is you are trying to fix.

https://www.racecompengineering.com/...the-apex-files

This is actually pretty cool info. Thanks! Still lots of questions.

Originally Posted by Teseo

Tunning suspension is a tedious trial & error to dial in for your preference/needs.

Agree. I see people discussing settings for Auto X, Time Attack, GymKhana, etc, and all I wonder is how do people retain so much info.

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Haha... Imagine me holding my dad's slide rule with a stack of textbooks on a shelf behind me.

It's fucking black art.

It is. Im reading the RCE guidelines and gotta say, Im not much of a learning while reading person. Im more practical. I think the best way to learn would be to hangout with people who did this for a living. To see and tinker with this stuff in person.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

It is. Im reading the RCE guidelines and gotta say, Im not much of a learning while reading person. Im more practical. I think the best way to learn would be to hangout with people who did this for a living. To see and tinker with this stuff in person.

Go into GT7, and make a big change to 1 setting and see what you notice. ACC is probably better for this but I don't think you have that. The problem is in game you are also dealing with the quirks of a physics engine trying to mimic real life.

For most people, leaving settings at baseline and tuning with sway stiffness is enough, maybe a couple clicks here or there off the baseline damper settings.

[spcmafia]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Go into GT7, and make a big change to 1 setting and see what you notice. ACC is probably better for this but I don't think you have that. The problem is in game you are also dealing with the quirks of a physics engine trying to mimic real life.

For most people, leaving settings at baseline and tuning with sway stiffness is enough, maybe a couple clicks here or there off the baseline damper settings.

I do actually have ACC. Might give it a try.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

I do actually have ACC. Might give it a try.

Make sure it is a car/track you are familiar with. Trying to figure out a new car or track while also trying to feel out adjustments compounds the issue.

[gen3v8]

...

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

When I was like 16 or 17 I had a shock revalved by a popular tuner. I was having a hard time dialing it in so I called them. The guy answers the phone, asks me a couple questions, and then tells me " turn the compression knob full soft and go for a ride, turn it full stiff and go for a ride. Do the same for rebound. When you can explain the difference you are feeling then call me back. "

My downfall is that I'm just not that picky. It's only when pitted against a specific goal, like keeping up with someone else who's dialed in, that it matters to me. Otherwise, as long as the dampers aren't blown out, I unconsciously adapt my style to the machine and ride/drive on my merry way.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

My downfall is that I'm just not that picky. It's only when pitted against a specific goal, like keeping up with someone else who's dialed in, that it matters to me. Otherwise, as long as the dampers aren't blown out, I unconsciously adapt my style to the machine and ride/drive on my merry way.

I'm the same way. Once I get spring and sways setup I don't really mess with the knobs. I drove all last year with my car an understeering mess

[x808drifter]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

What videos do you guys recommend watching in order to understand tire and suspension settings. Or threads to read. I feel like yes, I love cars, and working on them, but suspension, tuning, alignment settings have been areas that I just left to other people to take care of. I'm also amazed on how much knowledge is out there regarding cars.

For example, playing Gran Turismo, I buy the highest level of suspension, all these performance parts, but I have no idea on how to set up a car. I just lower it and stiffen the suspension, but I have no idea on what I'm actually doing. How do you set up a car? Is it depending on its center of gravity? Power? Weight? How do tire alignment and suspension settings work with each other?

There's also things like gear ratios, final drive, etc.



I always tell others that owning a car is more than just doing an oil change and make sure it doesn't run out of gas. I personally like to understand a system that Im working on, or own, same reason of why I decided to build my PC so that I could understand what was going on, now I can easily diagnose issues and make recommendations on parts.



Someone show me the way.

Like most said there is no easy answer.
I've been studying/doing this shit for 2 decades and still am learning.
I will say when it comes to video games GT7 is not where you should be looking. Aim for a real sim on PC. AC, ACC, iRacing are good.
At least with games there is no need to worry about springs being to strong for your dampers. XD

Suspension is like areo. The more you know the less you know.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by x808drifter

Suspension is like areo. The more you know the less you know.

^^^this^^^

It's still good to know how little one knows.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

I do actually have ACC. Might give it a try.

Disclaimer, I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but I have done pretty much what you are looking at and here's my advice.

To get you started:
Recommend a flat track (no elevation changes/banking) with different length corners at different speeds. You want no aero on the car because that is a whole different game. Pick a RWD car. I am intentionally leaving toe adjustment out until the end.

There are two goals for racecar (comfort and feel are hard to do in sim I think):
-Achieve highest steady state grip in lateral and longitudinal directions.
-Achieve smooth and predictable transient load conditions

Start looking at steady state, mid corner performance first. Pay attention on solitary fast sweepers and slow >90° turns, and ignore everything else. First mess with the front/rear balance of the following: Sway bars, spring rates, camber. Then adjust them up and down as a whole, then go back to changing balance.

Next, look at corner entry. You are looking at slow, longer corners following a braking zone with the main parameter being how late you can brake and still follow the racing line with only smooth inputs. Parameters to mess with are: Spring rate overall, spring rate f/r balance, front bump damping, rear rebound damping, camber overall, caster. Note that some beneficial adjustments here might actually be to the detriment of mid-corner balance and performance. Once you figured out how settings affect you here, go back and forth to find a good balance.

Third, look at corner exit, particularly from medium speed corners onto a straight. Obviously you want to be able to put the most power down to get the highest speed coming out. Here you want to adjust: rear sway bar, spring balance, front rebound damping, rear bump damping, rear camber. Once you found a happy zone, go back through the other two phases, see the effect, and find a balance.

Last is quick direction changes. S curves, chicanes, etc at varying speeds. You want the car to change direction as quickly as possible while remaining stable through the second/third/etc curve. This is where damping really comes into play (at least on a race track). Adjust damping overall first, then balance, then look at spring and sway rates, then adjust damping again. As before, go back to the other phases and find a good balance.

Toe. I look at this as a last resort to attempt to make an axel just a bit more or less stable, mostly because I would probably always leave it at 0 on a real street car. Toe out typically makes that axel want to change directions a bit more, while toe in makes it more resistant to changing directions. You can try it out, but I recommend learning how everything else affects the car first.

Maybe add in elevation and/or banking and see what things do? Lol. Embrace the madness.

Once you have figured out one car, repeat with a few others with different weight distributions and geometries. Then you can try fwd, awd, aero, etc. Warning it's addicting.

Edit: Now change the tire compound and do it all again. Fun fact, EVERYTHING depends on the tires.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Spuds

...here's my advice

I love your systematic approach. It takes real passion to master a skill via sim.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

@Ultramaroon

As I lay on the couch, the house is abuzz with activity.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

When I was like 16 or 17 I had a shock revalved by a popular tuner. I was having a hard time dialing it in so I called them. The guy answers the phone, asks me a couple questions, and then tells me " turn the compression knob full soft and go for a ride, turn it full stiff and go for a ride. Do the same for rebound. When you can explain the difference you are feeling then call me back. "

this is really how i tweak my game vehicle settings as well.

half the time, i don't know what i'm adjusting, or if it's good or bad, i just adjust it until it feels right!

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I love your systematic approach. It takes real passion to master a skill via sim.

But a lot less time and money than doing it IRL!