Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[botbs]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am going to tell a little story here.
Back 2014 and 15 (long before the spring recall debacle) there were a number of mysterious engine failures due to oil starvation. I went back through older threads and managed to collect around 30 reported cases. Of the cases that actually gave detailed info there were more than 20 that included excessive sealant in the oil pickup. Of course there would have been many many more that never got reported here but with the data we had it was statistically probable that the majority of the failures were due to blocked passages and/or pickup tubes. All of the affected cars were very early 2013s

Many people wanted to ignore the sealant and stated that "there is no way there can be that much extra and it can't possibly get into the passages." Well the later failures due to bad sealant during the recall most certainly proved it could and does get into the passages and pickups if not applied correctly.

So, anybody that works in automotive manufacturing knows just how much is done by robots. In this case the sealant on the timing cover and oil pan are almost guaranteed to be put on by robot. It is exactly the sort of task that robots USUALLY do better than humans. Robots do however screw up (often because the human that taught the task did a piss poor job) on a fairly regular basis as well though. Yes these engines had been used for a short time in the Ascent but the differences in the overall construction likely means they had their own set of programing including the sealant application. Even being out by 1 millimeter or a few extra grams of material applied can give the results seen in the picture here. This type of failure is not unknown in the early production runs of anything new.

Odds are that if that was a total undisturbed stock engine there will be more than one with the same issue. Probably not many but enough to cast doubt on any of the very early production. If indeed the oil pan (as it appears to be) this time at least it is a far easier check than the timing cover. Getting the dealer to check may be difficult unless there are several failures and instructions come down from Subaru.

And people are surprised that some say to stay away from being an early adaptor of a new model car?

This tread is getting too long to read. Just wondering do the Gen 1 Facelift (2017 to 2020) have the same issue? I see you have a 2020 Hakone model, do you have the same issue? If yes, I need to check my 2018 one too, Thanks!

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by botbs

This tread is getting too long to read. Just wondering do the Gen 1 Facelift (2017 to 2020) have the same issue? I see you have a 2020 Hakone model, do you have the same issue? If yes, I need to check my 2018 one too, Thanks!

No. There were only a few early 13s that seemed to have the issue at all. Nothing later was ever found with sealant.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Another one.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

No. There were only a few early 13s that seemed to have the issue at all. Nothing later was ever found with sealant.

We would never be able to get it, but it would be interesting to know the VINs of the impacted vehicles. Maybe it was a range where the robot was out of spec, or was drunk, who knows.

For example, my early '13 (VIN 300ish) didn't have the issue, or at least if it did it wasn't enough to impact it given it's at 205K miles at this point. It also survived the valve recall.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

We would never be able to get it, but it would be interesting to know the VINs of the impacted vehicles. Maybe it was a range where the robot was out of spec, or was drunk, who knows.

For example, my early '13 (VIN 300ish) didn't have the issue, or at least if it did it wasn't enough to impact it given it's at 205K miles at this point. It also survived the valve recall.

I did have a spreadsheet once upon a time but deleted it in a document purge a few years ago. It was something I followed closely and most of the old threads can be found if anybody wants to dig deep enough. It wasn't as blatant as the current issue and of course the sealant related failures had to be weeded out of the the early bad tunes, straight up abuse (many were money shifted), over boosts and other early adapter issues. From memory all of the oil starvation issues were from a very tight time frame based upon date of manufacture. What that time frame was is lost in my memory to an M&Ms jingle or something else totally useless.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Another one.

Do you happen to know the oil baffle model in that picture? I went to the username handle website (ajracinginternational) and didn't see anything for the FA24 there that looks like that.

I plan to drop my pan and put in an oil baffle 'while I'm there' in a couple of weeks once whatever unit I go with ships. Here's the three baffles I see for the FA24:

Tomei
https://www.japanparts.com/parts/detail/?id=65442

Syms
https://www.japanparts.com/parts/detail/?id=64610

Trust Greddy
https://www.japanparts.com/parts/detail/?id=65461

I'm assuming the FA20 baffles to not work; the Trust Greddy unit for instance appears to have a different shape cutout for the oil pick up line. Does anyone know of any other available units for our engines?

Lastly - anyone know what intake this is?

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

Do you happen to know the oil baffle model in that picture?

Don't use the one in that picture, or anything that has moving parts (particularly rubber) that could break loose.

Putting the baffle in is also a really big risk that you're going to have any RTV warranty issue in the future denied - it'd be difficult to prove that the baffle didn't contribute/cause an oil-flow situation that led to RTV coming loose.

But mainly the baffle in that picture has also been shown in at least one case to have the rubber baffles come loose and partially block the oil pickup tube.

A solid one-piece solution is probably safest, but still going to give the dealership a reason to consider denying a warranty claim. Risk/reward is up to you to gauge.

[lucky_666]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I am going to tell a little story here.
Back 2014 and 15 (long before the spring recall debacle) there were a number of mysterious engine failures due to oil starvation. I went back through older threads and managed to collect around 30 reported cases. Of the cases that actually gave detailed info there were more than 20 that included excessive sealant in the oil pickup. Of course there would have been many many more that never got reported here but with the data we had it was statistically probable that the majority of the failures were due to blocked passages and/or pickup tubes. All of the affected cars were very early 2013s

Many people wanted to ignore the sealant and stated that "there is no way there can be that much extra and it can't possibly get into the passages." Well the later failures due to bad sealant during the recall most certainly proved it could and does get into the passages and pickups if not applied correctly.

So, anybody that works in automotive manufacturing knows just how much is done by robots. In this case the sealant on the timing cover and oil pan are almost guaranteed to be put on by robot. It is exactly the sort of task that robots USUALLY do better than humans. Robots do however screw up (often because the human that taught the task did a piss poor job) on a fairly regular basis as well though. Yes these engines had been used for a short time in the Ascent but the differences in the overall construction likely means they had their own set of programing including the sealant application. Even being out by 1 millimeter or a few extra grams of material applied can give the results seen in the picture here. This type of failure is not unknown in the early production runs of anything new.

Odds are that if that was a total undisturbed stock engine there will be more than one with the same issue. Probably not many but enough to cast doubt on any of the very early production. If indeed the oil pan (as it appears to be) this time at least it is a far easier check than the timing cover. Getting the dealer to check may be difficult unless there are several failures and instructions come down from Subaru.

And people are surprised that some say to stay away from being an early adaptor of a new model car?

I am one of those 13 owners that had a random engine failure after 3/4 years. Engine was full of fresh oil when it happened to and just so happened to be months after my warranty expired. Unfortunately I just dropped it off and said fix it and while you're at it, new clutch. Never really asked the tech how it happened.

That experience is also why I had no interest in buying a 22.

[Teseo]

Originally Posted by lucky_666

I am one of those 13 owners that had a random engine failure after 3/4 years. Engine was full of fresh oil when it happened to and just so happened to be months after my warranty expired. Unfortunately I just dropped it off and said fix it and while you're at it, new clutch. Never really asked the tech how it happened.

That experience is also why I had no interest in buying a 22.

What oil you used before that last change and how much cost you the repair?

I'm MY13 owner, 90k miles, no spring bullcrap recall and I still got inner voice that my car will grenade itself.

[Re_Invention]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

Don't use the one in that picture, or anything that has moving parts (particularly rubber) that could break loose.

Putting the baffle in is also a really big risk that you're going to have any RTV warranty issue in the future denied - it'd be difficult to prove that the baffle didn't contribute/cause an oil-flow situation that led to RTV coming loose.

But mainly the baffle in that picture has also been shown in at least one case to have the rubber baffles come loose and partially block the oil pickup tube.

A solid one-piece solution is probably safest, but still going to give the dealership a reason to consider denying a warranty claim. Risk/reward is up to you to gauge.

Cheers Spektyr - good info and noted on the hinged windows. I think I'm going to order the Greddy piece, looks the most straight forward (and cheapest!)

from page 1:

https://toyotagazooracing.com/pages/...RZCUP_0630.pdf

I'd sure love that referenced STI baffled oil pan but can't find it for sale anywhere. (ST11109Z2000) Maybe OP Rainy, or anyone else, knows where to purchase it?

[Tcoat]

Sorry for the cross thread repeat but felt this needed to be here as well as in the BRZ sub:

Of course we don't know for sure but having been in several engine build plants over the decades I would say with about 98% confidence that it is done by a single robot.
Their are so many variables that could go into this being misapplied that there is no way that anybody can armchair quarterback and say with any degree of confidence "this is what happened". All I know is that robots can and do screw up more often than many would ever believe.
Since it is summer and things are slow at work I have spent an exuberant amount of time looking at this issue. Not because it will affect me in any way since I will never buy a second gen but because it simply interests me. It helps that I do not have any emotional or personal investment into the situation and can look in from the sidelines.

With the VERY limited data that we have I have have the following opinions on the subject. These may (and have) changed as more data becomes available but as of this moment these are my thoughts.
Everybody can take them as they wish.

"Excessive" sealant - From looking at many pictures of different oil pans I would say that the bead is within the normal spec. All Subaru pans that use sealant on the oil pan show a bead inside about the same. What is different is they are all still fully intact. There is either something about the FA24D that makes it break off (i.e. a smaller surface contact area, over torqueing the bolts and pinching off the bead) or there was something wrong with the sealant or it's application other than how much was used (i.e. it didn't cure properly, it was to hard or soft). Of course there is also the extenuating circumstance of harder use on a track but all in all if it is going to break off under those conditions it is eventually going to break off during "regular" driving as well. I do not believe that "excessive" oil pan sealant is the true issue.

Blocked pickup - This is the obvious in your face symptom but there are a few things that make me believe it is not the direct cause of the failures. So far (with the limited data) all the failures have been a single bearing. An overall drop in oil pressure would mean damage to all the bearings not just one. Of course one would fail first they wouldn't all go at the exact same time but there would be clear indications of oil starvation across the board. A drop in overall pressure that great would also turn on the idiot light. Yes, it would be too late but it would most certainly come on. There have only been two reports of the light coming on at any point before failure. The blocked pickup however is most certainly going to impact the oil flow to some extent but as pointed out by many there is ample surface area left that by itself it should be fine.

Timing cover/other sealed components - The focus has been so heavy on the oil pan that other potential sources of contamination have been forgotten or just totally disregarded. The FA20D post recall failures were more often than not the result of techs sealing off oil channels when reapplying the sealant or contamination of the whole oil system by improper cleanup of the old crap not big chunks breaking off. Yes, again there was sealant in the pickups but the amount was tiny in comparison to what we are seeing now and could not possibly have reduced flow to any significant level. I don't think I have seen any good pictures of the timing cover sealant (have looked as so so many) to fully grasp if it is a possible contributor. There are however a couple of pictures floating around that show at least three different colours of sealant in the pickup. The big question there is where did they come from and how much of the engine did they travel through to get there? Or the even bigger question may be how much DIDN'T make it to the pan and filter? Blocked channels (not the pickup) was the main reason for both pre and post recall work on the FA20D. There is plenty of evidence to support that.

FMEA (Failure Mode and Effects Analysis) - So what do we know right now with the limited data at hand?
1) All the reported failures involved spinning a single bearing. No thrown rods, failed oil pumps, clogged filters, two or more bearings, nothing else.
2) All the spun bearing engines had sealant in the pickup.
3) Not all the engines with sealant in the pickup have spun a bearing
4) There are very limited reports of a low oil pressure waring prior to failure
5) There are pictures showing more than one type of sealant in the pickup.
6) All reported failures involved cars under heavier than "normal" usage. The past failures that did not involve heavy usage all occurred between 1,000 and around 15,000 miles (with some outliers at 20,000 or even 30,000 but those are rare). Of course many of the 22s haven't reached the upper end of that yet so failures due to time may not be seen for a bit.

When these things are put together and looked at a complete system instead of just looking at one individual symptom a picture starts to emerge. It would be my educated GUESS that small pieces of sealant are making it into and partially blocking an individual channel in the block. This can happen during filter bypass at cold start or by being introduced to the engine after the filter but before the pickup. This blockage by it's self does not produce Imeadiate catastrophic failure but does increase wear on an individual bearing. Under heavy usage (or eventually just enough time at normal use) the partially blocked passage reduces the pressure to the point that oil is no longer able to pass through the affected channel resulting in starvation and failure to that single point. I propose that you need the combination of ALL three of these things (Blocked channel + partially blocked pickup + heavy use/time) to get to the failure mode. Remove any one of these three and failure is unlikely.

So What Can Be Done? - The root cause, whatever that is, will be up to Subaru to fix. They are obviously well aware of the concerns and will address it.
Removing the oil pan and inspecting/cleaning the pickup will remove one of the possible factors. If done properly the resealing should not recreate the issue especially if it was a product quality or assembly process problem to start with. By ensuring full flow volume and pressure it may even be possible that if there is a small blockage in a channel it will blow it out.
A blocked channel is of course much, much harder to diagnose. If there is a question to whether a channel is blocked the only way I can think of to have any clue at all would be to check the oil filter closely. If clear of any small bits it is not probable that any made it through during startup bypass. Of course that does not help if dome was introduced after the filter but even then if there was enough to bock a passage at least something would have made it to the filter! This check of course does not help anybody that has already changed and thrown away the original filter. Not normally something I would recommend but another action would be to use one of the better engine flush chemical (after cleaning the pickup of course) as it may manage to dislodge anything that the normal oil would not touch. The whole denial warranty by "altering" or "tampering" with the engine thing could come into play depending on how big a d1ck any individual dealership wants to be so that has to be kept in mid before touching a single bolt!
There is not a whole lot that can be done about the heavy use or time aspects I am afraid. You could drive the car like a grandma, keep you fingers crossed for 30,000 miles and then inspect the bearings for abnormal wear but if the other two possibilities are eliminated all should be good anyway.


OK, well that is it until we either get more data or Subaru/Toyota actually make a statement (don't hold your breath on that one.

WOW THAT WAS LONG!

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

Don't use the one in that picture, or anything that has moving parts (particularly rubber) that could break loose.

A lot of the baffles on the market for any car are of this design, and unless it is a cheap crappy knockoff, haven't heard of any issues. I could see a copy not getting the right material and causing issues. Don't buy crap, shouldn't be a problem. My bluemoon baffle survived rod impact, hammered it flat, good as new, almost, kinda, maybe.

@Re_Invention It says in the text it is the Revolution GR86 baffle.

https://www.rhdjapan.com/revolution-...-gr86-zn8.html

[Re_Invention]

@NoHaveMSG Cheers - I didn't catch that. I thought maybe it was the Cusco one.

I'm going to be lazy and go with the Greddy unit - it appears the simplest, reuses the pickup tube 10mm bolts for securing it in place and doesn't create a new contact point between the case and pan mating surface.

Will post up pics of pulling the pan and any gunk that is uncovered. Frankly - I'm in the camp that doesn't believe it is just the oil pan gasket breaking off and causing the issue, I suspect it's all around the motor and probably not even the cause for any of the critical failures. But the matter still stands - I don't want that gunk in the pick up tube!

I've pulled the pan on my 997 when swapping out for an extra capacity unit. Wasn't that bad of a process, heck now with the pro-tips (warm up the RTV, use an applicator gun) I'm all the more encouraged to get it done DIY.

I'd like to echo Spektyr and others comments here - save it for the dealership/announcement if you're worried about maintaining any level of warranty or CANNOT AFFORD TO THROW AWAY THE MOTOR. I don't want to set an example for others with my lackadaisical attitude - I'm doing this fully comfortable with junking the motor by my own fault. Same info I give for the steering wheel spacer (or any modification for that matter) or will be giving with the CAE shifter I just installed. Just because you see folks talk/do it on a forum and you can emulate it, doesn't mean it absolves you of your own responsibility of your actions. The youtubers like Justin are also screaming this, and rightfully so - and I suspect for most folks (although our selection bias here with enthusiasts is probably going to be in the DIY camp) should not be undertaking this process.

Just my $0.02 on the matter. Thanks for the input so far all!

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Re_Invention

@NoHaveMSG Cheers - I didn't catch that. I thought maybe it was the Cusco one.

I'm going to be lazy and go with the Greddy unit - it appears the simplest, reuses the pickup tube 10mm bolts for securing it in place and doesn't create a new contact point between the case and pan mating surface.

Will post up pics of pulling the pan and any gunk that is uncovered. Frankly - I'm in the camp that doesn't believe it is just the oil pan gasket breaking off and causing the issue, I suspect it's all around the motor and probably not even the cause for any of the critical failures. But the matter still stands - I don't want that gunk in the pick up tube!

I've pulled the pan on my 997 when swapping out for an extra capacity unit. Wasn't that bad of a process, heck now with the pro-tips (warm up the RTV, use an applicator gun) I'm all the more encouraged to get it done DIY.

I'd like to echo Spektyr and others comments here - save it for the dealership/announcement if you're worried about maintaining any level of warranty or CANNOT AFFORD TO THROW AWAY THE MOTOR. I don't want to set an example for others with my lackadaisical attitude - I'm doing this fully comfortable with junking the motor by my own fault. Same info I give for the steering wheel spacer (or any modification for that matter) or will be giving with the CAE shifter I just installed. Just because you see folks talk/do it on a forum and you can emulate it, doesn't mean it absolves you of your own responsibility of your actions. The youtubers like Justin are also screaming this, and rightfully so - and I suspect for most folks (although our selection bias here with enthusiasts is probably going to be in the DIY camp) should not be undertaking this process.

Just my $0.02 on the matter. Thanks for the input so far all!

When dealing in important parts, sticking to known commodities is my rule of thumb. Hasn’t failed me yet.