Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[chipmunk]

4 mm or 6 mm, the actual sealing happens at the inner edge of the mating surfaces. There should be a little chamfer or blend on one of the mating surfaces that the bead of silicone should seat in. It's not supposed to break off clean, unless the mating surfaces are not perfectly degreased.
Acetone is your best friend for cleaning silicone. Lay a consistent bead, going around bolt holes. If necessary, use a finger to smooth out the inner edge.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Robertw

All Toyota had to do was put some text disclaimers on the bottom of all the commercials showing on track "motorsports" behavior or drifting, stating "This type of driving will void your warranty", and they'd be in the clear. lol

Or wait, would that be counter productive to the excitement they've been trying to generate for the Toyota brand with the GR lineup? /s

They already do say not to do it!


See if your eyes are fast enough to actually read it.

[removedonut]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

OH I personally still think it is excessive but we just don't KNOW. If the same spec as the FA20 then that is way too much since that is closer to 10 or 12mm.

4.5mm on the oil pan, 4mm on the timing chain cover. Each with a tolerance for half a millimeter variance.
Based on everything i’ve seen, they are not applying these to spec at the factory. There is a 4mm bead of RTV oozing just out of the outside of my timing chain cover.

[Dake]

Originally Posted by Robertw

All Toyota had to do was put some text disclaimers on the bottom of all the commercials showing on track "motorsports" behavior or drifting, stating "This type of driving will void your warranty", and they'd be in the clear. lol

Or wait, would that be counter productive to the excitement they've been trying to generate for the Toyota brand with the GR lineup? /s

As Tcoat mentioned, they do this is fine print in numerous areas. But I think where they'd lose were this to go to court for this specific case is they literally provide a free membership to a "racing" organization, therefore implying it's sanctioned.

After all of the dust settles, you can bet they'll never offer a membership like that again.

[dragoontwo]

Don't forget about the RTV on the oil pan sub assembly, too.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by mycrors7

Toyota isnt the one to blame for the root cause.. or at least from what we know to be the cause so far.

Toyota can fix it sure.. or attempt to, but until Subaru figures out exactly which machine is out of calibration or is programmed to be generous, it will never end the cycle of issues.

you fix problems at their roots. redoing the timing chain covers and oil pans are a fix to a problem that shouldnt exist.

The only thing toyota should be fixing is their FST's and how warranties are handled.

As of right now, Subaru should be focused on finding what went wrong and where.

they can replace engines once engines are assembled properly and correctly.

I should clarify, I'm only talking about Toyota in relation to the OP. Clearly it will be a twin wide issue, so both of them need to ensure that its something that isn't deemed acceptable and let slide.

[JusTheG]

Originally Posted by removedonut

4.5mm on the oil pan, 4mm on the timing chain cover. Each with a tolerance for half a millimeter variance.
Based on everything i’ve seen, they are not applying these to spec at the factory. There is a 4mm bead of RTV oozing just out of the outside of my timing chain cover.

Half millimeter is doable for a Gantry/Robot dispense, and even I would assume Passable for QC would 1 mm, so at most 5.5 mm for bead width and at least 3 mm for height. Beyond that, you're going to see squish out and forced operator cleanup of wasted material. 4 mm is annoying but the not the end of the world. I would recommend seeing if the stringer portion of that RTV is not making any contact with lubricants or any other surfaces for possible reflow/burn up. Don't pull at the RTV as the existing bead may separate and start having leaks if you pull too much material out.

I've seen crazy things like a reflowing RTV that solidified for passing Leak test and then fail for when QC disassembled it after a 48 hr cure. But most likely, the dispense application for the Subaru pan, cover, and the take up saw incorrect dispense patterns and weight, QC failed to evaluate for height of bead dispense (only way to verify dispense pattern before Final Assembly), and then low pressure/high pressure leak test passed for the Engine Unit. Sucks to hear about the problems with 1-year 2nd Gen's as I was on the same track to have my '22 BRZ, but all buyers should just monitor their vehicles and see if any leaks/engine problems start appearing.

Originally Posted by Blighty

I should clarify, I'm only talking about Toyota in relation to the OP. Clearly it will be a twin wide issue, so both of them need to ensure that its something that isn't deemed acceptable and let slide.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, OEM's must uphold Warranty claims for the Customer as per the agreement for Service lifetimes for the duration of the contract. For Subaru's Operations Department, they will definitely desire to nip any QC liability and possible recalls for engine and main subcomponent failures immediately to mitigate losses. Toyota needs to ensure that Subaru handles all warranty claims appropriately for them as per their agreement for selling the GR86 with Subaru manufactured components. I understand people are having second thoughts for these companies, but warranty claims happen all the time. For current and future customers, understand that the durations for these claims do take more than just a day to resolve but having corporate response like Aon's claim is reassuring.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dake

As Tcoat mentioned, they do this is fine print in numerous areas. But I think where they'd lose were this to go to court for this specific case is they literally provide a free membership to a "racing" organization, therefore implying it's sanctioned.

After all of the dust settles, you can bet they'll never offer a membership like that again.

I can see where they meant to go with the "racing" clause but just how many actual race teams look for warranty work anyway? Hell any true race team is going to have at least a couple of spare engines ready to go since they know the risks.

I also understand why they are reluctant to cover abuse situations when there are no extenuating circumstances involved. You money shift and throw a rod through the block, over boost with an aftermarket turbo, or simply tune to the point of destruction, be it on track or street, that is on you and not the company. Expecting coverage for something you did is just entitlement.

The main case here had the extenuating circumstance of sealant so it should have been a no brainer right from the start even if there were signs of heavy use.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Everytime your point is countered you come back with a left field "well what about this." "I am not well versed enough on this to form an opinion" is a reasonable response instead of arguing with people about stuff you have no knowledge of.

Let me explain a small part of manufacturing to you. Company A buys whole component from company B. Company B's component fails on end user. Company A still has to take care of their customer. Toyota should take care of the issue, and Toyota IS taking care of the issue. Like most problems of this nature, it is likely not as large as the forum tends to make it, as the forum tends to have a higher concentration of enthusiasts. Whatever resolution comes between Toyota and Subaru, will be between them and we likely will never know the details.

Look, I'm just responding to your and others posts. If I add some thing from left field is because its a situation I am personally concerned about and want to discuss it with other on this forum. If there is anything you think I said is incorrect, then correct me, but don't blow it off and say I have no knowledge of anything - because that's a mistake.

We ALL know the Subaru and Toyota designed the engine, the D4S was integrated right there inside it. There will absolutely be specifications for the sealant and placement. There absolutely is plenty of ways that this issue may actually be so common place as to require a recall, but just not yet uncovered, and finally Toyota representatives have not been covering themselves in glory at all and have been radio silent about the sealant issue even after even seeing the issue during a teardown. Pretty sure those teardowns reports only have 'dealer' staff know about it.

If you think I need to know how manufacturing works, and that it could very well be a problem in the robot on the line, or some terrible practice of Subaru, well of course I know that - don't be silly.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Blighty

Look, I'm just responding to your and others posts. If I add some thing from left field is because its a situation I am personally concerned about and want to discuss it with other on this forum. If there is anything you think I said is incorrect, then correct me, but don't blow it off and say I have no knowledge of anything - because that's a mistake.



We ALL know the Subaru and Toyota designed the engine, the D4S was integrated right there inside it. There will absolutely be specifications for the sealant and placement. There absolutely is plenty of ways that this issue may actually be so common place as to require a recall, but just not yet uncovered, and finally Toyota representatives have not been covering themselves in glory at all and have been radio silent about the sealant issue even after even seeing the issue during a teardown. Pretty sure those teardowns reports only have 'dealer' staff know about it.



If you think I need to know how manufacturing works, and that it could very well be a problem in the robot on the line, or some terrible practice of Subaru, well of course I know that - don't be silly.

Right back to where we were pages ago.

[Ultramaroon]

Hey, guys, if you're going to drop and reinstall your pans, please be careful about keeping the RTV away from the screw holes, especially if they are closed at the bottom.

I learned the lesson as a kid when I ruined a casting by ignoring the physics of incompressible fluids. Cracked it wide open lengthwise along the cavity.

I know it's a challenge, but this can kill the most valuable parts of the engine if the RTV has nowhere else to go.

[Dake]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I can see where they meant to go with the "racing" clause but just how many actual race teams look for warranty work anyway? Hell any true race team is going to have at least a couple of spare engines ready to go since they know the risks.

I also understand why they are reluctant to cover abuse situations when there are no extenuating circumstances involved. You money shift and throw a rod through the block, over boost with an aftermarket turbo, or simply tune to the point of destruction, be it on track or street, that is on you and not the company. Expecting coverage for something you did is just entitlement.

The main case here had the extenuating circumstance of sealant so it should have been a no brainer right from the start even if there were signs of heavy use.

Oh for sure. Of course, over-tuning, adding FI, etc are all beyond the scope of this discussion.

I put "racing" in quotation marks in the way a manufacturer tends to claim anything that's not "commuting to work at 55 mph" is "racing".

[Aon]

This is a response received by one of the journalists from Toyota:

Regarding the 2022 GR86 issue in question, the Toyota Gazoo Racing brand is driven by enthusiasts and focused on delivering incredible experiences wherever the driver may take their vehicles, including the closed-course settings for which their vehicles are designed, so long as they are driven in a manner that falls within the terms of the warranty.
While the vehicle’s warranty excludes damage that results from activities such as misuse and racing, simply participating in National Auto Sport Association (NASA) High Performance Driving Events (HPDE) or similar NASA instructional events provided complimentary to GR owners would not, in and of itself, void the warranty. Warranty claims are evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
Based on further review, we’ve determined the repair of Mr. Alvarado’s vehicle in this case is covered under warranty.
As always, we encourage customers who experience any issues with their vehicle to contact their authorized Toyota dealer or call the Toyota Brand Engagement Center (1-800-331-4331) when a dealer is not able to resolve a matter.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dake

Oh for sure. Of course, over-tuning, adding FI, etc are all beyond the scope of this discussion.

I put "racing" in quotation marks in the way a manufacturer tends to claim anything that's not "commuting to work at 55 mph" is "racing".

Oh I was agreeing with you! Let's get a firm and consistent definition of "racing".
If you go to their sponsored track event it isn't "racing" but just go on your own it suddenly is?

The reason I brought up the abuse is because that was what they were originally claiming. "abuse through racing".